E-waste copper-lead alloy cupellation

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Ayham Hafez said:
I did the following:

Smelt all lead oxide with copper oxides collected from the cupellation attempts, material was 22 kg, I added 1 kg sugar and some borax and soda ash, I got 10.5 kg of metal shots, then make cupellation for them in three equal batches, I used lpg with minimum air source, the issue was the high temperature of the cupellation furnace, copper can be oxidized easily with high temperature in cupellation process so the solution is to control the temperature and use a reduction flame during the cupellation process.

If I want to reduce the copper content by use an oxidizing flame, will PM's be lost in the oxidized copper, answer is yes, I did an experiment for some oxidized copper from the cupellation by parting it using nitric and at the end I got silver,gold and palladium!


I think the easiest way to get +99% copper from e-waste smelting is to use lead oxide and lead sulphate then make cupollation to reduce the lead content. Lead sulphate and oxide will push most of base metals into slags, but don't do that with tin, soda ash can take care of the tin.


Now I wonder if Copper electrolysis cell will be effected if I use copper-lead alloy about 50:50 , if lead is not soluble in copper sulphate electrolysis cell, that mean I can shortage the process and don't make cupellation, just melt lead-copper alloy into anodes and use it in copper electrolysis cell.
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Are you trying to cupel the lead from this material and save the copper and pm’s?
 
Ayham Hafez said:
Now I wonder if Copper electrolysis cell will be effected if I use copper-lead alloy about 50:50 , if lead is not soluble in copper sulphate electrolysis cell, that mean I can shortage the process and don't make cupellation, just melt lead-copper alloy into anodes and use it in copper electrolysis cell.
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I strongly suspect that the anode will passivate from a solid cover of lead sulfate. The amount of lead is too high.
If you dilute the lead by adding copper it should only fall off as it is formed and the copper dissolves. I don't know what that level could be. The drawback is that it will take more time and power, but you could use old copper cathodes to dilute the metal so except for the first run it should be self sufficient with respect to copper.

Göran
 
g_axelsson said:
I strongly suspect that the anode will passivate from a solid cover of lead sulfate. The amount of lead is too high.
If you dilute the lead by adding copper it should only fall off as it is formed and the copper dissolves. I don't know what that level could be. The drawback is that it will take more time and power, but you could use old copper cathodes to dilute the metal so except for the first run it should be self sufficient with respect to copper.

Göran
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Thanks a lot, I think it worth a test, maybe I can reduce the lead to 25% to avoid passivation, since lead sulphate will kept in the filter bag that will not be an issue, its better than affecting the electrolyte solution by other base metals like nickel and iron, lead remove them from e-waste alloy like a magic, tried many times to oxidize them using nitrates but always got a magnetic alloy but with lead components I got a fully non magnetic alloy
 
Ayham Hafez said:
Thanks a lot, I think it worth a test, maybe I can reduce the lead to 25% to avoid passivation, since lead sulphate will kept in the filter bag that will not be an issue, its better than affecting the electrolyte solution by other base metals like nickel and iron, lead remove them from e-waste alloy like a magic, tried many times to oxidize them using nitrates but always got a magnetic alloy but with lead components I got a fully non magnetic alloy
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That only means that the alloy that are created are too chaotic to have aligned spin.
It do not neccessary mean it have no Iron or Nickel.
There are non magnetic Iron alloys.
 
Ayham Hafez said:
Yes this is exactly what I want
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Follow g_axelson’s advice. Proper smelting with good flux’s and sparging will produce a better metal for the copper cell. Yes, it takes time and electricity, but by running smelts regularly in time you get a steady out put of refined materials, on a regular basis. Set up a small cell, maybe a gallon or two in size and give it a try. Then if your happy go bigger.
 
Yggdrasil said:
That only means that the alloy that are created are too chaotic to have aligned spin.
It do not neccessary mean it have no Iron or Nickel.
There are non magnetic Iron alloys.
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I don't make magnetic separation before smelt, without lead I got a white strong magnetic alloy because of iron and nickel high content, but with lead even small amount of lead I use a very strong magnetic to check, I believe it has no iron or nickel
 
Ayham Hafez said:
I don't make magnetic separation before smelt, without lead I got a white strong magnetic alloy because of iron and nickel high content, but with lead even small amount of lead I use a very strong magnetic to check, I believe it has no iron or nickel
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Unless you have actually removed the Iron and Nickel it will still be there.
The alloy itself may have passified the magnetic property.

Magnetism is created by aligned spin either in the mass itself or imposed by another magnetic substance.

So if you did not oxidize it and remove it as slag, it may still be there.
 
Yggdrasil said:
Unless you have actually removed the Iron and Nickel it will still be there.
The alloy itself may have passified the magnetic property.

Magnetism is created by aligned spin either in the mass itself or imposed by another magnetic substance.

So if you did not oxidize it and remove it as slag, it may still be there.
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Sure, the slag is very magnetic that mean magnetic parts pushed into slag, with my experience in lead acid battery smelting, iron react with lead sulphate very quickly to make iron sulphate and lead, also lead oxide react with iron to oxidize it but slower than lead sulphate.
 
Ayham Hafez said:
Now I wonder if Copper electrolysis cell will be effected if I use copper-lead alloy about 50:50
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A copper cell will not work without anodes exceeding 95% copper. The lead will form an insoluble sulfate and it will be such a high concentration that it will foul your anodes and fill the anode bags.
 
4metals said:
A copper cell will not work without anodes exceeding 95% copper. The lead will form an insoluble sulfate and it will be such a high concentration that it will foul your anodes and fill the anode bags.
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Absolutely correct. Especially with anything near a 50:50 mix. Been there and tried that. I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means, but I have tried a few different ways to make the anodes for copper cells. Most small refiners consider copper a nuisance, a cell makes it an additional income potential.

If I recall correctly, In another thread he mentioned the cost of electricity and the time it takes to produce from a cell as the reason for trying to avoid using them, but for what he wants, it still seems the most viable based on my limited knowledge. Time waiting for the cell to produce workable slimes, is used to prepare the next round of anodes, and work any recovered slimes, so it is not time wasted.
 
Shark said:
Absolutely correct. Especially with anything near a 50:50 mix. Been there and tried that. I wouldn't consider myself an expert by any means, but I have tried a few different ways to make the anodes for copper cells. Most small refiners consider copper a nuisance, a cell makes it an additional income potential.

If I recall correctly, In another thread he mentioned the cost of electricity and the time it takes to produce from a cell as the reason for trying to avoid using them, but for what he wants, it still seems the most viable based on my limited knowledge. Time waiting for the cell to produce workable slimes, is used to prepare the next round of anodes, and work any recovered slimes, so it is not time wasted.
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I believe using copper cell is the best but I have several issues with getting +99 copper purity as anode.


First, I can't get degassing tube so I can oxidize base metals, it's not available in my country even neighbors countries.


Second, if I use potassium nitrate to oxidize base metals,the carbon in the ash will consume it by reducing base metals again, unless I use very large amount of nitrates which is very expensive in my country, potassium nitrate 25 kg bag around 55$. Also because of neighbors I can't incinerate the pyrolyzed ash, I don't know if its feasible to add nitrates after E-waste fully molten so there is no carbon inside the crucible.
 
Ayham Hafez said:
First, I can't get degassing tube so I can oxidize base metals, it's not available in my country even neighbors countries
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I have never done it but you might be able to make a tube from the same material as some crucible’s are made of. A simple tube would work and be useful even if you only got one or two uses from it. Are there laws that keep you from buying them from other countries?
 
Just make sure you are reducing the copper after you oxidize off the garbage elements. otherwise you'll have many many slimes. i just processed a bunch of slimes from someone elses cell. it was a ton of garbage for a couple grams of gold.
 
Shark said:
I have never done it but you might be able to make a tube from the same material as some crucible’s are made of. A simple tube would work and be useful even if you only got one or two uses from it. Are there laws that keep you from buying them from other countries?
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There is embargo on my country so can't import from companies such as Amazon or eBay
 
snoman701 said:
Just make sure you are reducing the copper after you oxidize off the garbage elements. otherwise you'll have many many slimes. i just processed a bunch of slimes from someone elses cell. it was a ton of garbage for a couple grams of gold.
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How you can control that? I will show you an oxidized copper from cupellation this oxidized quickly just by some oxidized flame while cupellation, immediately once I increase the air a thick layer formed on the molten so I have to reduce the flame then crush the layer to get clean molten staff, I wonder if I have lost gold into this oxidized layer since I always skimming it off, or I will not loose any PM's till all copper oxidized?
 

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