First gold blank

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Noxx

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 24, 2007
Messages
3,365
Location
Quebec, Canada
Here is the first bar I made using a press and a few other tools.

Sorry for the bad quality pic. I used my webcam. I'll try to post a better one this week-end.

P.S. It looks much better in real :p

 
It's not easy to see much detail, what with your web cam and my outdated monitor, but it looks pretty nice, Noxx. I'll be interested in seeing more.

How much tonnage did it take?

Harold
 
Looks really nice Noxx.

I just purchased a rolling mill hoping it would allow me to make smooth sheets that could be punched into discs then laser etched as 'coins'.

The mill has a very narrow opening and therefore doesn't lend itself readily to working directly from gold buttons fresh out of the furnace. They are way too thick which requires the button to be hammered thin enough to make it into the mill opening. Besides that the mill requires way more force to turn than I thought it would. It's pretty much impossible for me to work it right now with my bum hand from the surgery. Maybe when I get back to nearly 100% I'll have better results.

I guess I'll need to get my hands on a good press to get that smooth finish I've been looking for. Do you have a photo of the press you are using?

Great job!

Steve
 
Au supplied by P3M :p

That blank looks quite professional to me so far, cant wait to see the result after the die press.

Noxx, something interesting I found, though they have stopped producing/selling them.
https://online.kitco.com/splash/index.html
 
lazersteve said:
Looks really nice Noxx.

I just purchased a rolling mill hoping it would allow me to make smooth sheets that could be punched into discs then laser etched as 'coins'.

The mill has a very narrow opening and therefore doesn't lend itself readily to working directly from gold buttons fresh out of the furnace. They are way too thick which requires the button to be hammered thin enough to make it into the mill opening. Besides that the mill requires way more force to turn than I thought it would. It's pretty much impossible for me to work it right now with my bum hand from the surgery. Maybe when I get back to nearly 100% I'll have better results.

I guess I'll need to get my hands on a good press to get that smooth finish I've been looking for. Do you have a photo of the press you are using?

Great job!

Steve

Steve,

Lazer etching gold to make coins sounds a bit tricky to me. I suppose you will be using some lazer CNCs ?

Rolling mills are a must. I guess the one you have is adjustable from 0mm to 5mm ?

On my side, I used my school's rolling mill and it was quite easy to operate. The handle is quite long thus giving the operator a mechanical advantage. I'll have to buy one because the one I used is dirty and it surely contaminates my gold.

The press we have at school is a benchtop manual laboratory press made by Carver. Here is a pic I took on google:

12_TON_MODEL_C_CARVER_PRESS.ashx
 
In spite of being pure, gold still work hardens, so it's mandatory that it be annealed when rolling. If you fail to do so, even if you succeed in rolling the material, it's likely to crack. It will come out extremely rigid and hard, making it difficult to work with for any future operations (such as coining).

You won't believe the difference it makes to heat it dull red, then allow it to cool, or plunge it in water.

I used to own a set of power rolls, made in Italy. Flat rolls on one side, with wire rolls on the opposite side. Sold them when I sold the refining business. They are now owned by one of my previous customers, in Ogden, Utah.

Harold
 
I was aware of the work hardening aspect of pure gold but not the specifics of its annealing. You statement leaves me still wondering. Steel is annealed by taking to red heat and cooling as slowly as possible. Copper is annealed by taking to a red heat and quenching to cool it as rapidly as possible.

When you say to take gold to a dull red heat and allow it to cool, or plunge it in water I am still left wondering. I’m not trying to bust your chops, but I am still unclear as to how to anneal pure gold.
 
Steel is hardened (usually) by the carbon cycle. That has nothing to do with non-ferrous materials, gold specifically.

Everything you need to know to anneal gold has been presented here---you simply have options in cooling, which has nothing to do with annealing. If you heat gold to a dull redness, it will be annealed. The same is true for copper. It does not require quenching for annealing.

The advantage of quenching, if you care to take that route, is that it rapidly cools the material, making it possible to be handled sooner, and tends to clean the surface in the process. Otherwise, there is no real advantage in quenching.

Assuming you attempted to anneal a material that formed oxides, the rapid quench tends to shed the oxide coating, so that's to advantage, to say nothing of limiting the amount of time the heated material might be exposed to the atmosphere. I used to cast large copper bars for recovery of silver. I relied on the quenching to clean the bars.

Harold
 
If I understand you correctly gold does not go through a phase similar to steel (martensite or austentite). From blacksmithing my understanding was that iron formed a martensite (high hardness) due to the rapid cooling that traps the carbon atoms instead of letting them diffuse. This is why low carbon iron could not be hardened by quenching.

The austentite state on the other hand is promoted by allowing the carbon to escape its matrix before the iron has cooled.

I really did not want to belittle the point with technical descriptions that often do not work out in the real world. If based on your experience gold that is taken to a dull red heat is annealed regardless of the rate of cooling that is good enough for me.

It also rings a bell that rapid cooling sheds oxides regardless of the element based on my experiences.
 
Oz said:
If I understand you correctly gold does not go through a phase similar to steel (martensite or austentite). From blacksmithing my understanding was that iron formed a martensite (high hardness) due to the rapid cooling that traps the carbon atoms instead of letting them diffuse.
That's not what happens. When carbon bearing material (steel) is heated to the critical point, its structure, which was body-centered cubic, is transformed to face centered-cubic. Rapid quenching prevents the face-centered cubic from returning to body centered. That is the mechanism by which steel (or iron, assuming it has enough carbon dissolved within) is hardened.

That is why low carbon iron could not be hardened by quenching.
Mild steel, or steel with less than roughly .3% carbon, can't be hardened because it lacks the required percentage of carbon that is transformed upon heating, although I recently read an article that claims that even mild steel can be hardened if it is quenched rapidly enough. Tends to go against the rules, but I am not a metallurgist, so I am unable to refute or support the idea.

I really did not want to belittle the point with technical descriptions that often do not work out in the real world. If based on your experience gold that is taken to a dull red heat is annealed regardless of the rate of cooling that is good enough for me.
It's not only my opinion, it's supported in fact.

Here's a little test you can perform so you will understand better. If you have access to rolls, roll a small piece of gold without annealing. You'll notice that each pass through the rolls will be harder than the previous pass. It's not attributed to increased surface area alone, it's because you are cold working the gold, which responds by work hardening. After you have taken your piece through the rolls maybe three times, you'll find it quite hard, springy, in fact. If it is quite long, it will support itself when held horizontally. Now, place it on a piece of fire brick and heat it to dull red. Do not quench. When it has cooled, hold it horizontally and tell me what it does. Next, run it through the rolls, making it thinner yet. Tell me how hard it was to send through the rolls after annealing, as compared to the last pass before annealing.

For the record, work hardening and the carbon cycle have nothing in common aside form each of them making the metal in question harder than it once was.

There is yet another process for hardening, and it encompasses both ferrous and non-ferrous alloys. It's called precipitation hardening, which is the method by which aluminum is heat treated (artificially aged, and then only certain alloys) and many other exotic alloys. Vascomax is one of them. Vascomax 350 can be heat treated to 350,000 psi, and it does not require anything but an air quench. Heat treat is accomplished in the furnace, at reasonably low temps, where hardness is created by crystal growth. 17-4 PH is such an material. There are also many air quenching tool steels.

Harold
 
I questioned you because I respect your opinion and you have had more years than I to gather empirical knowledge. Empirically I know more about iron than gold as I have spent many more man hours blacksmithing than refining. It will be fun performing the experiments you propose and I will report back as usual. Because of my iron working past, gold has always cofounded me when it comes to temper/hardness. You have also enlightened me as to copper, as I had always though that the rapid quenching was required for annealing.
 
I understand that you are confused, but as Harold wrote, the principle behind the hardening is different.

In steel hardening you want to have the hard "high temperature structure" at room temperature. So you heat the steel to high temperature, and quench it. The quench is so fast, that the steel is "frozen in the high temperature structure" before it can change to the low temperature structure. There is an energy barrier to the transition, and once cold, the barrier is too high.
For the same reason, when you want the steel to be soft for filing or cutting, you heat it and let it cool as slowly as possible, giving it ample time for the transformation to the low temperature phase.


When working a piece of metal, you introduce defects in the crystal structure, and this makes it harder. When you heat it, you add the energy (and mobility) to the metal that will allow the structure to "heal" the defects. It is thermodynamically preferable to have a structure with fewer defect, but once again the energy barrier prevents the rearrangement from happening spontaneously... until you heat it. Since there is no "hard high temperature structure" in copper, silver, gold and brass, quenching will just make it cold, not hard.



Precipitation hardening is yet another ballgame depending on diffusion and subsequent formation of crystals at the grain boundaries.
 

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