FIRST REFINING help me not make some rookie mistakes

[4metals]

The setting up of the equipment, while at the outset building it from scratch can seem daunting at first, but building the equipment is totally do-able. The hard part is acquiring a steady stream of material to refine at good margins to make a living. What type of scrap gold are you looking to refine and what do you plan to do with your gold once it is refined?

We can help you with the setup and chemistry, we have successfully done that multiple times, what we cannot do is get you your scrap and customers. So while working towards doing the refining safely also consider what you plan on refining and its source. They go hand in hand, cannot have one without the other!

 

[skinny]

The setting up of the equipment, while at the outset building it from scratch can seem daunting at first, but building the equipment is totally do-able. The hard part is acquiring a steady stream of material to refine at good margins to make a living. What type of scrap gold are you looking to refine and what do you plan to do with your gold once it is refined?

We can help you with the setup and chemistry, we have successfully done that multiple times, what we cannot do is get you your scrap and customers. So while working towards doing the refining safely also consider what you plan on refining and its source. They go hand in hand, cannot have one without the other!

good points, let me try to answer them effectively,
my wife makes a good salary what i want to get to is bonus income untaxable since i live in a tax free gold state.
the material i want to refine will be karat scrap gold jewelry no gold filled and no gold plated for now as well as sterling silver..
i have a relationship with my local coin shop owner a great man who has agreed to use me instead of the big refiner he currently uses once im fully operational until then i will be buying what scrap i can afford looking for the best deals i can. i can buy from him under melt.
i mentioned ive been in metals awhile before going down the refining path i was a pour artist i made hand poured premium bullion and pioneered the diamond and stone setting in bullion bars to my knowledge no one else was doing it. i had a great run up till covid ended and premiums came way down. there is no money in that anymore. what id like to do once i refine the gold is two things custom cast figurines and collectables and cast gold bullion bars and coin blanks. i cant afford the blank machines yet but hopefully ill be able to in the future. i have a pretty good customer base as far as buying goes and as long as i get the metal under melt i can sell it at a 2 percent premium once stamped and authenticated and sit on it if i have to but im positive itll sell. i guess now that ive said it out loud this is where my rush or lack of patience happens i already have endless material to access but not the means to do it and make money. i dont really want to make money i just dont want to spend money. even if i refine for fun and break even atleast i have something to do and cool experiments to teach my son,

 

[FrugalRefiner]

what i want to get to is bonus income untaxable since i live in a tax free gold state.

The IRS may see things differently.

Dave

 

[4metals]

IRS issues aside, how much metal would you expect to be refining in any given week? Would it start out as karat gold? Is there any sterling silver you want to refine as well? And how much of that per week?

And I assume you have access to nitric acid at reasonable prices? Hydrochloric Acid is easier the limiting factor is nitric for any size able production.

 

[skinny]

i dont much care for the irs at the moment but i can buy and sell gold and silver and its supposed to be tax free either way if i need to claim it ill claim it im not going to jail for something stupid we can end that conversation. my dealer does a pretty large volume however initially what i can buy is what ill refine. i have about 500 pounds of copper my dealer is willing to trade for scrap just have to pour it in to bars for the trade so ill be starting off with about 2000 dollars of material. i hold several ozs of gold and silver so if i need to enlarge the batch i can if i had to guess weekly id say about an oz of gold scrap 20 to 30 grams pure and 10 ozs of sterling or 9 ozs pure. im still shopping for the best price on acids if any one has suggestions on where to point my nose that would be greatly appreciated. gold would be chains pendants and rings with stones removed sterling would most likely be incomplete silverware sets

 

[4metals]

One thing you will discover pretty early on is it takes as long to refine one ounce of gold as it takes to refine 15 ounces of gold. The good news is the scrubber I outlined will handle your NOx easily but you still need to work in a fume hood. I would start by acquiring a used clean IBC container to fabricate into a hood, that process has been described in links I suggested earlier. The exhaust would be provided using the venturi action of a strong blower that need not be corrosion resistant. That was also described in earlier links.

Know that you can digest a half kilo of karat gold in a 5 liter beaker. If you are starting with scrap sterling on hand, you can inquart and part with nitric. This will give you clean cemented Silver for your small Silver cell and parted gold of 99%+ purity to re-refine in aqua regia. The inquarting and parting recipe assumes you have access to sufficient nitric acid.

The modest starting out goals you have make it relatively easy for you to set up and be productive as you scale up for future work.

You will also be well served to look up the discussions here at GRF for small Silver cells typically in stainless steel bowls.

 

[skinny]

i actually have a silver cell rigged up ready to operate i am using a stainless steel bowl, i watched too much sreetips

all that is good to hear i am working on building the fume hood next over the next couple weeks ill dive in to those threads and start building ill update when i have more work done i appreciate your input its answered alot of questions

 

[skinny]

One thing you will discover pretty early on is it takes as long to refine one ounce of gold as it takes to refine 15 ounces of gold. The good news is the scrubber I outlined will handle your NOx easily but you still need to work in a fume hood. I would start by acquiring a used clean IBC container to fabricate into a hood, that process has been described in links I suggested earlier. The exhaust would be provided using the venturi action of a strong blower that need not be corrosion resistant. That was also described in earlier links.

Know that you can digest a half kilo of karat gold in a 5 liter beaker. If you are starting with scrap sterling on hand, you can inquart and part with nitric. This will give you clean cemented Silver for your small Silver cell and parted gold of 99%+ purity to re-refine in aqua regia. The inquarting and parting recipe assumes you have access to sufficient nitric acid.

The modest starting out goals you have make it relatively easy for you to set up and be productive as you scale up for future work.

You will also be well served to look up the discussions here at GRF for small Silver cells typically in stainless steel bowls.

ive attatched what i have done at this time not included there is the blower i already have i decided to give this vevor venturi pump a try im looking for a way to build a vacuum distribution block so i can run a vhose to my filter funnel as well as my scrubber and be able to adjust the vacuum pressure just havent settled on the parts yet

 

[4metals]

I thought I saw that vacuum setup with two separate intake feeds so you can use one for scrubbing and one for vacuum filtration. I will suggest a simple bubble trap in a 2 or a 4 liter vac flask filled with a liquid caustic solution because solutions are filtered before they are de-noxed and the acid fume can wear on the pump. The simple bubble trap is insurance.

 

[skinny]

thats the plan i have the glass flasks in my cart to buy later the vacuum does have two inlets but still no way to control the strength of the vacuum to slow the rate if needed a distro block would be handy if i have two beakers going in my hood and filtering having an extra vacuum hose or two might be nice but not critical what packing material do you recommend for the caustic solition and or hydrogen peroxide? my plan is to have three bubbler flasks one empty for flow back one with caustic solution and one with hydrogen peroxide solution then pump im worried that with some filters and filter paper that the vacuum might get too powerful and poke holes being able to regulate the pressure would be cool

 

[4metals]

 

[skinny]

Skinny hey man relax .
Just don’t rush it research for a couple weeks , study some .
your gold will still be there .
It may sound like an easy process but until you get comfortable with your techniques and methods I would tread lightly .
I found that it’s is preferred that you try to research and not be spoon fed .
Have you refined anything yet.
Are you comfortable using torches and acids yet .
I ask these question because I don’t know your back ground and would like to help you .
Have you practiced with silver refining yet ?

Jeff

hello jeff, i apologize i was off and overwhelmed. i am very comfortable with torches and molten metal acids not yet i have never refined anything but am a fan of refining videos for a very long time. i work with bullion and have been for half a decade i started my own company called blood money bullion and this is the direction i want to go

 

[Martijn]

thats the plan i have the glass flasks in my cart to buy later the vacuum does have two inlets but still no way to control the strength of the vacuum to slow the rate if needed a distro block would be handy if i have two beakers going in my hood and filtering having an extra vacuum hose or two might be nice but not critical what packing material do you recommend for the caustic solition and or hydrogen peroxide? my plan is to have three bubbler flasks one empty for flow back one with caustic solution and one with hydrogen peroxide solution then pump im worried that with some filters and filter paper that the vacuum might get too powerful and poke holes being able to regulate the pressure would be cool

You can use a couple T pieces to connect a bleeder valve in the suction line letting air in, and one to a U-tube filled with water to measure the vacuum.
This way you can set the vacuum to the desired strenght.

10cm height difference equals 10mBar pressure, so one leg rising 5 cm is 10mBar vacuum. With a two meter u tube you can measure as deep as 200mBar. That should do it imo.
just be careful not to suck any water in to the vacuum pump.
If you use a water powered venturi, it won't harm it.

Edited to change 'filter' into vecuim pump. And added some teks to elaborate: The control and measuring part should be in between the pump and scrubbers. If you use a water powered venturi, any water flowing in won't harm it.

 

[anachronism]

Good thing you didn’t inhale! If you had we might not have your British Humor to enlighten our days.

Haha I did. Hence the beginning of the learning curve! You rightly saw the black humour in my post!

 

[4metals]

Haha I did. Hence the beginning of the learning curve!

Nothing like a hit of NOx or a hit of SO₂ to provide a life long learning experience.

 

[BGDOCK]

I know it’s bad but I do like the faint whiff of NOX , not a big fan of HCl , H2SO4 reminds me of drain cleaner kinda blah

 

[BGDOCK]

I know its bad but I do like the faint whiff of NOX , not a big fan of HCl , H2SO4 reminds me of drain cleaner kinda blah

 

[Shark]

SO2 is the worst to me with NOx a close second.

 

[BGDOCK]

hello jeff, i apologize i was off and overwhelmed. i am very comfortable with torches and molten metal acids not yet i have never refined anything but am a fan of refining videos for a very long time. i work with bullion and have been for half a decade i started my own company called blood money bullion and this is the direction i want to go

I think we all been there ( know I have ) still find myself apologizing to someone .

 

[ssmontecarlo]

A piece of wet wood would be preferred over steel plate as molten gold will alloy with steel if something goes wrong. Pouring directly to water will work if the volume is large enough and the pour is slow. Pouring to a block of ice in water will work, again with a pour that is not over fast.

I have never seen a crucible melt and I have melted gold with oxygen/acetylene. I once heated a broken crucible with oxygen/acetylene to remove slags and recover values. That crucible took all the heat I could get from that torch. If it is possible to melt one under normal refining conditions I be interested in knowing how it happens.

The crucible I use are from Italy. I purchase them off ebay. Now I did by mistake order some China made ones. Contacted the company on ebay, and they sent me the Italy made crucible for free. And tes the China made ones are made from very low crane material.
When I melted the gf ( gold filled) items I used an acetylene/ oxygen torch. When melting all the material, I noticed the molten metal was getting thicker and thicker. I assumed it was the crucible. I have a couple of old crucibles. I can test one with just melting copper wire in it and see if this happens again.
When I pour the molten metal into the bucket of water..I used a metal bucket or a large stainless steel pot, with just regular water from the garden hose. I pour from a height 2 and a half- 3 feet above the bucket of water. To make the " cornflakes".
Apologies for such a lengthy reply. Just trying to be as detailed as possible. I've always had and got a good return of gold in the past. And I still have some gf items, a gold necklace, a other gf items. I just don't want to waste the gold again. Because it did explode rather violently. Be safe