For the LIFE of me I cannot get my gold to drop! 😭

[Golddigger76]

Romex will be perfectly fine give your solution a stir a few times during the process and when you think that you are done do a stannous chloride tests to make sure that all of the gold has intact cemented out.

I use heavy copper buss bars that hang from thick copper ground wire for cementing and can easily shake off the cemented gold or silver since they hang from a rack above my beaker but any pure copper wire or pipe is perfect.

 

[Golddigger76]

Kurtak is correct about copper contamination but assuming that your not letting the copper set for longer than needed, it will work
You should still wash the cemented gold very well and a hot hydrochloric wash also.
You still need to refine it another time to have pure gold.

 

[kurtak]

If there is H[AuCL4] in the solution, cementation will help.
For copper strip in solution, the minimum is a week with stirring.

Per the bold print - this is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE - there is absolutely no reason why he should not have ALL of his gold cemented back out within an hour or 2 - in his situation

If there is a thio-complex of gold there, you can cement it until you turn blue,
and nothing will happen.

This would be an exception to the rule (of cementation) & though there is a possibility he has created such I have my doubts --- copper will certainly tell him - AND - it will do so as soon as he put the copper in

I don't know where & or how you keep coming up with this B.S. that it takes DAYS to cement &/or that it doesn't give complete recovery &/or that it results in HEAVY contamination but your continued posting such is ABSOLUTELY FALSE &/or MIS-INFORMATION

Please stop post this absolute B.S. concerning cementation

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

Romex will be perfectly fine

Romex (#14 #12 #10) will certainly cement the gold - the problem with it is that as lighter gauge wire you are taking a chance of dissolving away most of the wire but also ending up with "small bits" of copper that go un-dissolved that are hard if not impossible to "pick out" of the cemented gold powder

So - heavier is better - at least #8 & preferably #6 to insure "minimizing" over dissolving the copper to the point of ending up with "bits" of copper in the cemented gold powder

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

I should add one more note here - for best result with cementing you want "low" Ph - like 0 - 1

So - because of all the chems you have added in trying to get your gold you may (or not) have raised the Ph to 2 or 3 & if that is the case you should add some HCl to lower the Ph back down to 0 or 1

Kurt

 

[Ultrax]

Per the bold print - this is ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE - there is absolutely no reason why he should not have ALL of his gold cemented back out within an hour or 2 - in his situation

This would be an exception to the rule (of cementation) & though there is a possibility he has created such I have my doubts --- copper will certainly tell him - AND - it will do so as soon as he put the copper in

I don't know where & or how you keep coming up with this B.S. that it takes DAYS to cement &/or that it doesn't give complete recovery &/or that it results in HEAVY contamination but your continued posting such is ABSOLUTELY FALSE &/or MIS-INFORMATION

Please stop post this absolute B.S. concerning cementation

Kurt

When an opponent shouts something like “ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE” and “ABSOLUTELY FALSE &/or MIS-INFORMATION” or "B.S." (which is actually very impolite) with 100% confidence, he must be ready to confirm his words with numerical data from verified and authoritative scientific sources.
Can you do it?

Provide any three verified scientific references (other than your personal opinion) on the rate of copper cementation of noble metals from chloride solutions.

P. S. If you bother and manage to find this information, you will be very surprised.
And also a question for you to think about: why is copper cementation not used in industrial gold mining? After all, this is so effective, in your opinion?

 

[Yggdrasil]

When an opponent shouts something like “ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE” and “ABSOLUTELY FALSE &/or MIS-INFORMATION” or "B.S." (which is actually very impolite) with 100% confidence, he must be ready to confirm his words with numerical data from verified and authoritative scientific sources.
Can you do it?

Provide any three verified scientific references (other than your personal opinion) on the rate of copper cementation of noble metals from chloride solutions.

P. S. If you bother and manage to find this information, you will be very surprised.
And also a question for you to think about: why is copper cementation not used in industrial gold mining? After all, this is so effective, in your opinion?

I'll go for an attempt on the last one.
Maybe because they for the most part use Cyanide and other neutral or alkaline solutions?

 

[Ultrax]

I'll go for an attempt on the last one.
Maybe because they for the most part use Cyanide and other neutral or alkaline solutions?

No. It also works: Cu +2CN^-=Cu(CN)2^- + e = -0,87 v (formally)

 

[Yggdrasil]

No. It also works: Cu +2CN^-=Cu(CN)2^- + e = -0,87 (formally)

So why do they not use Copper in stead of Zinc?

 

[Ultrax]

So why do they not use Copper in stead of Zinc?

I asked my previous opponent about this, who claims that I am writing B. S. Let's wait his turn.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I asked my previous opponent about this, who claims that I am writing B. S. Let's wait his turn.

We should really not be opponents in here!

 

[Ultrax]

An "opponent" in a discussion is a polite, purely scientific, and not politically correct definition.
Why should we distort the true meaning of words? We're not at a political show, are we?

And kurtak's behavior was self-confident and impolite. Self-confidence in science must be justified.
I don’t need an apology for his rudeness, let him just prove his point, if he can.

 

[Yggdrasil]

An "opponent" in a discussion is a polite, purely scientific, and not politically correct definition.
Why should we distort the true meaning of words? We're not at a political show, are we?

And kurtak's behavior was self-confident and impolite. Self-confidence in science must be justified.
I don’t need an apology for his rudeness, let him just prove his point, if he can.

In everyday speech it is often used as an adversary or even with a hint of enemosity.
Sometimes I let that colour my use of the language.
My bad!

 

[kurtak]

I asked my previous opponent about this, who claims that I am writing B. S. Let's wait his turn.

I just got out of the shower & finished eating my breakfast & then checked in with the forum one last time before shutting my computer down to get on with my day to do things needing done to make life happen

So yes I will certainly respond but it wont be until tomorrow morning when I get back on my computer

For what it is worth Ultrax - I VERY MUCH enjoy reading the things you post & have GREAT respect for the scientific/chemistry knowledge you share on this forum & it is most certainly not my intent to be rude &/or impolite in my response to you

let him just prove his point,

So - I will do this tomorrow when I have more time to do so properly

Kurt

 

[OldManSam]

Guys ... guys ...

I wasn't trying to start a fight 😅😅😅

Anyway ... The mystery deepens. I let the solution cook down a little bit lqte last night. I evaporated about 50mL off when suddenly the color changed. Like ... POOF. I was literally looking at it one second, turned away, and when I looked back it was completely different. It went from being a light golden, crystal clear color to a murky deep brown.

To my eye it looks like all the remaining gold suddenly precipitated all at once. Relieved, I went to bed to let it cool down and settle.

But now we are faced with a NEW problem. It didn't settle. I made a colloidal solution 😭 - and what's worse is that the excess sulfamic (and a bit of lead) are now crystallized around the top of the solution, as well as a pile on the bottom of the beaker. The stannous test shows NO GOLD IN SOLUTION!!! 😁

I am getting there, but slowly 😅

Here's my thoughts. I'm going to carefully decant the liquid into a clean beaker, leaving as much of the crystalline sulfamic behind as possible. Possibly rinse it in ice cold distilled water (to prevent redissolution of the sulfamic). Then I'm gonna clean the hell out of that beaker and then re-decant back into it ... back and forth a few times until I have gotten as much of the unwanted crystals gone as possible. I don't want to use my vacuum flask because I have never tried filtering a colloidal solution and I don't want to start experimenting now.

Once I have cleared all the lead and sulfamic mechanically (i.e., no filtering) ... Here is where I am going to ask for an opinion :

Sulfuric Acid. Everything I have read says it will break the colloid and allow the gold to fall to mud.

Yes ... or No? 🤔🤔🤔

 

[Yggdrasil]

Guys ... guys ...

I wasn't trying to start a fight 😅😅😅

Anyway ... The mystery deepens. I let the solution cook down a little bit lqte last night. I evaporated about 50mL off when suddenly the color changed. Like ... POOF. I was literally looking at it one second, turned away, and when I looked back it was completely different. It went from being a light golden, crystal clear color to a murky deep brown.

To my eye it looks like all the remaining gold suddenly precipitated all at once. Relieved, I went to bed to let it cool down and settle.

But now we are faced with a NEW problem. It didn't settle. I made a colloidal solution 😭 - and what's worse is that the excess sulfamic (and a bit of lead) are now crystallized around the top of the solution, as well as a pile on the bottom of the beaker. The stannous test shows NO GOLD IN SOLUTION!!! 😁

I am getting there, but slowly 😅

Here's my thoughts. I'm going to carefully decant the liquid into a clean beaker, leaving as much of the crystalline sulfamic behind as possible. Possibly rinse it in ice cold distilled water (to prevent redissolution of the sulfamic). Then I'm gonna clean the hell out of that beaker and then re-decant back into it ... back and forth a few times until I have gotten as much of the unwanted crystals gone as possible. I don't want to use my vacuum flask because I have never tried filtering a colloidal solution and I don't want to start experimenting now.

Once I have cleared all the lead and sulfamic mechanically (i.e., no filtering) ... Here is where I am going to ask for an opinion :

Sulfuric Acid. Everything I have read says it will break the colloid and allow the gold to fall to mud.

Yes ... or No? 🤔🤔🤔

To break a collodoid yo need to either add a flocculant or in other wise make it to aggloromate.
Boiling with Sulfuric is one way.
Another way us to re dissolve and drop again.
Add enough HCl to obtain pH 1 or so.
While stirring add a few crystals of pool chlorine or a few drops of bleach.
Very little is needed.
If it is truly a colloid it will clear up more or less immediately.
Then you can cement it out.

Edit for spelling and adjust text

 

[OldManSam]

To break a collodoid yo need to either add a flocculant or in other wise make it to aggloromate.
Boiling with Sulfuric is one way.
Another way us to re dissolve and drop again.
Add enough HCl to obtain pH 1 or so.
While stirring add a few crystals of pool chlorine or a few drops of bleach.
Very little is needed.
If it is truly a colloid it will clear up more or less immediately.
Then you can cement it out.

Edit for spelling and adjust text

Excellent... I would much rather not have to go buy some sulfuric acid 😅

So, as for the crystals in the solution, should I do some decanting to get rid of those first?

Then add HCl until pH of 1 ...

Start the stir bar and then dropwise add bleach?

 

[Yggdrasil]

Excellent... I would much rather not have to go buy some sulfuric acid 😅

So, as for the crystals in the solution, should I do some decanting to get rid of those first?

Then add HCl until pH of 1 ...

Start the stir bar and then dropwise add bleach?

More or less.
Do not add too much, if a ml or two has not fixed it, it is something else.
And the liquid need to be cold not warmed.

 

[kurtak]

Hmmm where to start

When an opponent shouts something like “ABSOLUTELY NOT TRUE” and “ABSOLUTELY FALSE &/or MIS-INFORMATION” or "B.S." (which is actually very impolite)

I guess I will start here

When I use caps &/or bold print it is not because I am shouting - it is because I am stressing a point in part of the discussion

If I was shouting I would hit the "cap lock" & my entire post would be in caps

with 100% confidence, he must be ready to confirm his words

And kurtak's behavior was self-confident

Yes - there is no question about it - I am VERY confident in my points about cementation & 100% confident or I would not be stressing my point(s) with caps & bold print

he must be ready to confirm his words with numerical data from verified and authoritative scientific sources.
Can you do it?

Provide any three verified scientific references (other than your personal opinion) on the rate of copper cementation of noble metals from chloride solutions.

I do not need to waste my time "looking for" authoritative scientific papers on this matter of cementation (actually ion exchange)

I have something MUCH better then that to prove my point(s) about cementation without the need to go "looking for" papers on the matter - & do so with 100% certainty

It is call 10 years of ACTUAL EXPERIENCE working in the recovery & refining of PMs for a living

To give you an idea of my "real life" experience - I used to buy my 57% nitric in 55 gallon drums & my 68% nitric in 15 gallon kegs (we can convert that to liters - if we want to get "scientific")

That should give you at least some idea of how much metal(s) I was putting into solution --- it certainly was not a back yard hobby hack dissolving a few grams of metal(s) kind of operation

And I can tell you this - as a MATTER OF FACT

Cementation played a major roll in the success of my "making a living" in the recovery & refining of PMs

Somewhere - almost daily - if not daily - cementation was taking place in my operation of PM recovery/refining

Cementation such as -----------

1) anything from 1 or two 35 gallon drums with copper to cement those last traces of PMs left behind from chemical precipitation ---&/or 1 to three 55 gallon drums with iron to recover (cement) the copper after PM/copper cementation

2) or cementing 10 - 20 liters of solution heavy contaminated with base metals AND lots of excess oxidizer in them as a result of leach things like ceramic CPUs or the IC chip ash concentrates from 100 - 150 batches of epoxy IC chips

3) or cementing 30 - 50 kilo batches of silver to upgrade it for running in the silver cell - or use the silver cement for a collector metal in my smelting operation

4) cementing PGMs as recovery after dropping gold - or PGM recovery from catalyst (Pd/Pt/Rh) so the PGMs can then go to actual chemical refining/separation

5) and yes - even using cementing to turn out 999 plus metals

And this is what I can tell you - with 100% certainty - after "employing" cementation almost daily (if not daily) in my operation

With cementation you can get ABSOLUTELY 100% recover of your PMs --- that is why - until the development of resins - cementing is what many LARGE refiners used to recover the TRACES of PMs left behind after chemical precipitation

I can also tell you that it ABSOLUTELY - DOES NOT - take days - to cement the PMs from solution - with 100% recovery --- it can IN FACT be done in hours - ranging from an hour (even less) to a full 8 hour day - depending on the situation --- in fact - just yesterday I cemented about a gram of gold from a test solution & it only took about 15 minutes

The ONLY real exception to this (short time needed for cementing) is in the case of cementing the TRACE PMs from solutions after chemical precipitation in which case you should let the cementation run for "at least" 24 hours & up to 2 or 3 days - mostly dependent on whether you are cementing a 5 gallon (20 liter) bucket of solution - or a 55 gallon drum of solution

The reason for the "extended" time for cementing in this case is because the solutions are VERY dilute to start with - dilute first in the very few numbers of PM ions in the solution (after chemical precipitation) - & then even more diluted in the washing out of the chem from the sponge after chemical precipitation

Provide any three verified scientific references (other than your personal opinion)

So - I most certainly do not need to provide you with scientific references to prove my point - nor is what I am telling you just a matter of my opinion

It is a MATTER OF FACT - with100% certainty - verified - by the almost daily (if not daily) employment of cementation in my (about) 10 years of making a living at the recovery & refining of PMs

Your turn

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

P.S. --- your turn - means you will now have to show me (& this forum) why cementation takes/requires DAYS to work &/or why it will certainly result in heavy losses of PMs

Both of which you have stated - statements that are at the very least mis-information - if not outright false information - & therefore in NEED of correction & the reasoning behind my posting as I did

Kurt