Gold Ore and Bleach Insight

Shop deals on ebay
shop deals on amazon
xelexo
Advertise with us
Gold Refining Forum

Help Support Gold Refining Forum:

This site may earn a commission from merchant affiliate links, including eBay, Amazon, and others.
f2fgold

f2fgold

Member
Joined
Jun 10, 2013
Messages
14
Location
Utah
Folks, my name Charles Stillman and I live Utah. Being a novice, most likely my questions will show my lack of understanding. I have an ore that has been assayed containing 4% gold. It is owned by a friend and he got the assay information from a Colorado company. I have reduced the ore to 150 micrometers in size and have removed most of its magnetics.

The Internet showed instructions for HCL/Bleach extractions. It stated 2:1 ratio – Acid / Bleach. Use six times the volume of the ore. Let act for 4 hours stirring every 20 minutes. Then add Sodium Metabisulfate to drop the gold.

Questions:
Does this sound accurate?
Do I need to remove the bleach before adding the SMB?
If so, how do I remove the bleach?
If bleach is still in the solution will it cause the Stannous Chloride to respond falsely?

I have read so much from different points of view but for different materials and under different conditions. I have done searches on the forum for bleach, ore, aqua regia and so on. Almost all of the advice is about gold refining and not gold extraction from ore. If I have missed something, please point out where to find it. It is like Butcher said, "sometimes just someone saying it a different way and we can understand it better, small details can easily be overlooked…"

I have researched C M Hoke's book and C W Ammen's 2nd addition. Obviously I refer to them A LOT! Hoke's book is not about ore extraction and she makes that clear. Ammen's book doesn't bring bleach up very much; his is mostly aqua regia. I have even read on the forum the feelings of most on the value of, or lack of, extracting gold from ore and its challenges. Nevertheless, any insight from you folks would be of great help. Thank you in advance. (And by the way, I have had 9 children so you can say anything you want and it won't hurt my feelings.) I apologize if this has already been discussed and answered. I am still learning how to get around in the forum.

I also wish to thank Harold _V and Butcher for their kind words and the quality they portray in their comments. It is an honor to be associated with people who have the desire to help others and the courage to reprove when needed.
 
We use the HCl/Clorox step for refining, not recovery (or in your case, "extraction"). It puts almost everything into solution, not just gold, so you need to get rid of (at the very least) any other non-PM metals present before you try to dissolve the gold itself. For SMB, you can think of that the same way Ms. Hoke mentions Copperas. So that said...

4% ore sounds incredibly high - When you say "ore", do you mean something already partially processed, like black sand?

I ask because it makes a big difference how you proceed. If you have gold-on-quartz, you can probably go right to HCl/Clorox. If you have black sand, you need to remove a LOT of random ferrous metals before you even think about putting the gold itself into solution, or you'll just end up with a huge mess.

Disclaimer: Still a newbie myself.
 
Charles,

\Welcome to the forum. Almost anything you need to know has been tried by someone else (here on the forum) at least once. We do not try to reinvent the wheel, but we do make some mistakes. We learn from those mistakes and others learn from us as well. Most newbies want to join the forum and have everything hand fed to them one step at a time. Most members will not do that because it is far more important that you learn the basics and then move on to the more advanced things. You have not appeared like that having said you have already read Hoke and Ammen. There are TWO basic processes discussed on the forum, RECOVERY and REFINING. You must first get the values and then refine them by eliminating everything that is not the PM (Precious Metal) you are after. Read the forum, especially the safety sections. Nothing you do is worth jeopardizing your safety or the safety of those around you whether it be family, friends, or neighbors. DO NOT ALLOW anybody near when you are recovering or refining. Any distraction can be fatal. Do everything outdoors or in a well ventilated area. Use the proper safety gear. One drop of sodium hydroxide (lye, caustic soda, NaOH) can (AND WILL) blind you if it gets into your eyes. I have a pair of shoes where 1 drop of NaOH fell on them and now there is a nice big hole in them.

I have read your post and, one thing JUMPS OUT at me. You said you used sodium metabisulfAte. It will not work. You need to use sodium metabisulfIte. There's only one letter difference between the two chemicals, but their usage in dropping gold from solution is day and night. READ HOKE until you think you understand it, then READ IT AGAIN, and use the SEARCH function on the forum. It's all there for the reading and, it's FREE. You can't get a much better deal than that.

A lot of what I have written is for a total newcomer, so don't take it personally if you have progressed beyond the initial stages. It's better to hear someone spell out safety than it is to have a needless accident. Butcher stresses ALWAYS POUR ACID INTO WATER and not the other way around. There are good reasons why we do things the way we do. By the way, with nine kids, when do you have time for R&R (recovery and refining) much less R&R (rest and relaxation)? I have 4 boys, all grown now. Between work and the drive to and from, I had very little free time. Good luck, I hope this helps.

Bert

P.S. As with any chemical process (Aqua Regia AR, Acid Peroxide AP, or Acid Chlorox) the chemicals undergo a change whereby they are no longer the original chemicals you started out with. You cannot remove the bleach from your solution. However, most newbies (myself included) usually use too much of one thing or another and end up with excess nitric in our solutions. If this happens, trust me, you'll probably only do this once. Getting rid of excedss nitric is almost like trying to unring a bell once it's been rung.
 
Charles,

Welcome to the forum. There is one common error in what you stated "Then add Sodium Metabisulfate to drop the gold." SMB is sodium metabisulphite, not metabisulphate. Both chemicals exist, but sodium metabisulphate will not precipitate gold.

I've recently been reading T. K. Rose's The Metallurgy of Gold. It deals extensively with ores, including roasting and leaching. You'll find that different ores require different treatments, but the general idea is to roast the ores to convert most metals to non-soluble compounds so the chlorine will leach primarily gold and not be wasted on all the other metals. It's an old volume, but worth a read if you're dealing with ores. It's beyond copyright protection so it is freely available. Try a search in Google books.

Dave
 
FrugalRefiner said:
Charles,

Welcome to the forum. There is one common error in what you stated "Then add Sodium Metabisulfate to drop the gold." SMB is sodium metabisulphite, not metabisulphate. Both chemicals exist, but sodium metabisulphate will not precipitate gold.

I've recently been reading T. K. Rose's The Metallurgy of Gold. It deals extensively with ores, including roasting and leaching. You'll find that different ores require different treatments, but the general idea is to roast the ores to convert most metals to non-soluble compounds so the chlorine will leach primarily gold and not be wasted on all the other metals. It's an old volume, but worth a read if you're dealing with ores. It's beyond copyright protection so it is freely available. Try a search in Google books.

Dave
Click to expand...

As he is speaking of "magnetics" in his ore, I would assume most of the iron in his ore is in the form of magnetite or haematite. As these are already oxides, would there be much point in roasting his ore to oxidize base base metals? A good analytical assay of his ore would show him if any base metals existed in his ore as free metals.

Also, we should be pointing out to him that the HCl/Clorox method, at a pH of 1-2, is far too acidic and the bonds of the oxides will get broken at that pH, allowing the base metals to go into solution. Trying to adapt the HCl/Clorox method, designed for refining gold, to leaching gold from ore is a waste of time. Plus, you will lay out more money in acid to try and remove base metals from ore than you will likely ever hope to recover from that ore in gold. Most patents show leaching with sodium hypochlorite to be done at a pH closer to neutral (7), at which point the sodium hypochlorite is converted to the powerful oxidizer hypochlorous acid. Addition of 10% sodium chloride by volume seems to be necessary as well. Also, the old timers made hypochlorous acid by adding chlorine gas to water. They then kept the solution under pressure, with the ore, in a sealed vessel, for two reasons. The pressure forced the chlorine to go into solution as hypochlorous acid more efficiently and the elevated pressure kept the hypochlorous acid molecule (HOCl) from losing its oxygen atom and becoming hydrochloric acid (HCl). Not only would this make the solution overly acidic, breaking the bonds of base metal oxides, it would prevent the hypochlorous acid from doing the job it was assigned, namely, dissolving gold.
 
chlaurite: Thank you for that understanding. It actually helps. Yes the 4% is very high and it's even higher for the Platinum group. Even the assayer was surprised but he said it would be hard to get out. Not sure why though. The ore, as I am told, is many years old waste from extraction at an old mine. It is very heavy and reminds me of galena by color and weight (but it is not I am told).

Bert and Dave, you are correct and it is my mistake in spelling. It is Sodium MetabisulfITE. Thank you for correcting me. I know how important it is to be accurate.

Now I actually am very familiar with safety, protection, acids and bases etc. I am surprised at the lack of cleanliness and controls a lot of Internet videos show. I have an excellent fume exhaust system, gloves, aprons and so forth and I do not use large amounts until I am familiar with reactions. I do everything I can to read and understand before action, have the correct tools and equipment even if I need to make them. That said, I appreciate the forums constant reference to following safety precautions.

Traveller11, I have actually heated the ore to 1500 degrees in an electrical furnace. I crushed the ore to 150 micrometers, used a magnet to remove the magnetics, put it then in an iron skillet about a ¼ inch thick to roast. It became a connected mass as a crust. When I removed it, it was basically one piece. I then used the HCL/Bleach, mistakenly as you men have taught me. I have also tested it for sulfur with a test tube as per Ammen's instruction and found no sulfur. I've used aqua regia, evaporated it (yet I may have boiled to high), used pure copperas crystals I have created, yet it has only worked on electronic scrap. I have created stannous chloride and tested it with electronic gold. It works great but cannot get a reaction from the ore.

Gentlemen, I appreciate your responses. You have given me very important items to assess my actions. I will review them many times to get all I can out of them. I have been working alone for so long in the learning process that it will take some getting used to having people with skills answering my questions and double checking my messages. Thank you.
 
Bert,

I am 60 years old and my last son is 18 so I do have a little time.... a little. I would tell people when they would ask how many children I had, "I have 9 children... five living and four teenagers."
 
f2fgold said:
chlaurite: Thank you for that understanding. It actually helps. Yes the 4% is very high and it's even higher for the Platinum group. Even the assayer was surprised but he said it would be hard to get out. Not sure why though. The ore, as I am told, is many years old waste from extraction at an old mine. It is very heavy and reminds me of galena by color and weight (but it is not I am told).

Bert and Dave, you are correct and it is my mistake in spelling. It is Sodium MetabisulfITE. Thank you for correcting me. I know how important it is to be accurate.

Now I actually am very familiar with safety, protection, acids and bases etc. I am surprised at the lack of cleanliness and controls a lot of Internet videos show. I have an excellent fume exhaust system, gloves, aprons and so forth and I do not use large amounts until I am familiar with reactions. I do everything I can to read and understand before action, have the correct tools and equipment even if I need to make them. That said, I appreciate the forums constant reference to following safety precautions.

Traveller11, I have actually heated the ore to 1500 degrees in an electrical furnace. I crushed the ore to 150 micrometers, used a magnet to remove the magnetics, put it then in an iron skillet about a ¼ inch thick to roast. It became a connected mass as a crust. When I removed it, it was basically one piece. I then used the HCL/Bleach, mistakenly as you men have taught me. I have also tested it for sulfur with a test tube as per Ammen's instruction and found no sulfur. I've used aqua regia, evaporated it (yet I may have boiled to high), used pure copperas crystals I have created, yet it has only worked on electronic scrap. I have created stannous chloride and tested it with electronic gold. It works great but cannot get a reaction from the ore.

Gentlemen, I appreciate your responses. You have given me very important items to assess my actions. I will review them many times to get all I can out of them. I have been working alone for so long in the learning process that it will take some getting used to having people with skills answering my questions and double checking my messages. Thank you.
Click to expand...

Actually, I have never recommended the HCl/Clorox method for ore or concentrates. I also think you could have saved yourself a lot of work if the base metals in your ore already existed as oxides, as, outside of reducing them in particle size, you may have been able to leach them just as they were. When dealing with microscopic particles of gold, any unnecessary process, such as removing magnetics, has the potential to lose gold out of your ore or concentrate.

Here is some interesting reading. It is an article from an Australian newspaper dated Jan. 31, 1891.

http://trove.nla.gov.au/ndp/del/article/71248750
 
Thank you Traveller11. I will review that right know. I can see I am using the wrong process completely.

And thank you FrugalRefiner for the link. I have downloaded it and am going through it.

THIS is why I decided to join.
 
Hi, The assay is really high, that comes out to 80 pounds per ton not troy, would be a bit less in troy weight. I would find another assay lab and run it again.
when most mines are mining gold ore that is around .10 of a ounce per ton, 80 pounds per ton is just so very high and the fast that is has been mined before it just seen to good to be true. also don't think that there is any PT at all but it would be nice and I wish you all the luck in the world that you have such great ore, but PLEASE get another assay done and not from the same lab.

Mitch.
 
mitchd said:
Hi, The assay is really high, that comes out to 80 pounds per ton not troy, would be a bit less in troy weight. I would find another assay lab and run it again.
when most mines are mining gold ore that is around .10 of a ounce per ton, 80 pounds per ton is just so very high and the fast that is has been mined before it just seen to good to be true. also don't think that there is any PT at all but it would be nice and I wish you all the luck in the world that you have such great ore, but PLEASE get another assay done and not from the same lab.

Mitch.
Click to expand...

Holy crap, Mitch, you're right. I glossed over the assay part but it does indeed work out to 80 pounds per ton or 97 Troy pounds or 1,164 Troy ounces. At even $1000/Troy ounce, that would be $1,164,000/ ton of ore. Another assay might just be a good idea.
 
f2fgold said:
Yes the 4% is very high and it's even higher for the Platinum group.
Click to expand...
Red flag time, Charles. I want you to step back, take a deep breath, then consider that everything you've posted simply isn't true. And, please understand I'm not trying to be rude (nor am I charging you with being a liar).

Lets look at this logically.

Gold is mined at concentrations as low as .10 ounce per ton, and the operation is profitable. As I stated in a different thread, just this evening, one percent content is nearly 300 ounces/ton. Armed with that idea, the ore you discuss would contain in the area of 1,200 ounces/ton, with a value of approximately $1,530,000/ton, and that would be just for the gold. Do you still think you've found something that rich?

Lets look beyond that for a moment. The US is not known for its platinum group production. Sure, there's some here---Kennecott produces platinum and palladium, and most likely some of the other platinum metals---but they are nothing but traces, with hundreds of thousands of tons processed per ounce. Were it not for the copper, silver and gold produced, they couldn't recover the platinum group economically.

Even the assayer was surprised but he said it would be hard to get out. Not sure why though. The ore, as I am told, is many years old waste from extraction at an old mine. It is very heavy and reminds me of galena by color and weight (but it is not I am told).
Click to expand...
Another red flag, Charles.
That's to imply that those who went before us were stupid. Being from Utah myself, and having been raised in the greater Salt Lake Valley, I am all too aware of the fact that mining is what built Utah. At one point in time, there were 28 smelters in the greater Salt Lake Valley. I remember when assay labs were abundant on the west side of Salt Lake City, and I used to use the last one in existence, Union Assay.

To suggest that the ore in question contained such riches and was discarded as waste can't be anything more than a myth, and I suggest to you that the person doing your assaying doesn't know what he's doing. I would further state that if he isn't doing a fire assay, you're wasting your time.

While I can't predict his motive, one of them may be to keep you coming back. I know that when I lived there (that's where I lived when I refined), there was one individual who continually made grandiose claims, none of which were ever substantiated. You may be being victimized by the same individual. Sorry, I do not know his name, as I heard of him only through folks who were told they had riches, but did not.

Before you do anything, including trying to extract any values you hope to find in your ore, it would be prudent to pay for a fire assay, requesting a report on silver and gold alone, as a matter of economics. Don't worry about the platinum metals. I suspect they don't exist, but if you find you actually do have silver and gold worthy of recovery, you could consider them at a later date. I guarantee you---even if you find the ore contains them, you won't have enough of them, even cumulatively, to process this ore for their extraction alone.

Harold

Edited to correct misinformation----thanks goes to FrugalRefiner
 
Gentlemen,

THIS is exactly why I am here. It all makes sense. I think the problem is that my friend is also one who knows precious (no pun intended) little about the ore he has and is going by hearsay.

I knew when I started with the forum that I would most probably find out I know even less than I thought I knew. Nevertheless I took a deep breath, tightened my belt and forged ahead. I will be a rough stone for a while until you folks polish me. I appreciate it very much.

I will do some more research into what he thinks is going on and even see if I can get the assay report. I do know however that his motives are not to get something from me or harm me in any way. I think he is the one who may have been deceived. And yes, now that you bring it up, Harold, it is totally impossible to think the miners would have left that much PM in their waste. I will tell him to get a fire assay of his ore.

Again, Thank You. I'll have more information soon hopefully.
 
And Harold, I think I first read that you were saying my friend may have motives not in my best interest. However, after reading it again and again I realize you were referring to the assayer and THAT may be true.
 
f2fgold said:
Absolutely Traveller11! I am a sponge.
Click to expand...

Here you go. This is the same process, only the chlorine solution is generated electrolytically from salt water and, instead of sodium metabisulphite to precipitate gold, it is deposited in the electrolysis process at the cathode.

Once again, from the 1890's, so the language is a bit hard to follow.

http://www.miningandmetallurgy.com/metallurgy/electrolytic-precipitation-gold
 

Latest posts

Back
Top