Help with Nitric Acid Elimination

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briguy2112

Member
Joined
Jun 1, 2010
Messages
13
So I made my AR, and roped my gold in. I ended up with a greenish yellow liquid. I filtered it like 5 times till all I had was the liquid. So I start to add Lye to neutralize all the Nitric acid. I had to keep adding it a spoonful at a time. I must have added about 2 cups before it stopped fizzing. Now I have a very cloudy white powder on the bottom of the bucket. Is there any way to fix this? I tried filtering and still have it there. If I add the SMB will it destroy all the gold getting mixed in with the left over lye? Please help. Also the AR turned a very royal green color and not yellow. Does that mean I have a lot of copper and will that precipitate out with the gold? I have been reading posts all day and cannot find the answer. Thanks to all of you for contributing to this very informative forum.
 
Why did you add lye to neutralize the nitric acid? The lye would also react with the hydrochloric acid (as butcher noted).
Normally the nitric acid is destroyed by evaporation or addition of urea. The HCL need not be neutralized prior to precipitation.
The green is probably due to copper. When you precipitate with SMB some of the copper will be mechanically dragged down, but not much. The final powder should have less than 1% copper. You will need to redigest with AR and reprecipitate to get high purity gold.
 
chemist said:
Why did you add lye to neutralize the nitric acid? The lye would also react with the hydrochloric acid (as butcher noted).
Normally the nitric acid is destroyed by evaporation or addition of urea. The HCL need not be neutralized prior to precipitation.
The green is probably due to copper. When you precipitate with SMB some of the copper will be mechanically dragged down, but not much. The final powder should have less than 1% copper. You will need to redigest with AR and reprecipitate to get high purity gold.




Can I use baking soda or anything else I can't seem to find Urea anywhere locally. They have fertilizer with urea in it but it has a bunch of other crap too. Or can somebody tell a different name it may be under? Or another product I may use? Thanks again for all the help. Also is this 1st batch shot? I am just doing little batches trying to get it right, so its not a big deal if it is. I am using 1/10 gold filled items per batch and using 1 pound of it at a time. I have another batch ready in AR for tomorrow. and another for Saturday. Please let me know.
 
briguy2112 said:
chemist said:
Why did you add lye to neutralize the nitric acid? The lye would also react with the hydrochloric acid (as butcher noted).
Normally the nitric acid is destroyed by evaporation or addition of urea. The HCL need not be neutralized prior to precipitation.
The green is probably due to copper. When you precipitate with SMB some of the copper will be mechanically dragged down, but not much. The final powder should have less than 1% copper. You will need to redigest with AR and reprecipitate to get high purity gold.




Can I use baking soda or anything else I can't seem to find Urea anywhere locally. They have fertilizer with urea in it but it has a bunch of other crap too. Or can somebody tell a different name it may be under? Or another product I may use? Thanks again for all the help.

No don't use the baking soda.

Urea is the perticular name of the fertalizer, just like ammonia nitrate, sodium nitrate & potassium nitrate. It will not take as much as you think to neutralize the nitric in your solution. Just depends on how much you have. Got to a specialty garden store, corner flower store, just look for a small place that sells plants and shrubs and you can ask them where you can find urea or other small garden stores.
 
chemist said:
Normally the nitric acid is destroyed by evaporation or addition of urea.

I'm sorry but that's not the case. Urea will remove NOx in solution but not nitric acid. In fact, you can add a handful of urea to red fuming nitric acid to make it "white".

If you want to neutralize an acid, you need a base.
 
Funny. I processed gold, using AR, for more than twenty years. Never, ever, did I use urea. NEVER!

Have you given any thought to evaporating? Seems to work. It's in Hoke's book.

Harold
 
Harold_V said:
Funny. I processed gold, using AR, for more than twenty years. Never, ever, did I use urea. NEVER!

Have you given any thought to evaporating? Seems to work. It's in Hoke's book.

Harold

How long should I heat it for? I know from reading the forums NOT to boil it. But how long do I need to keep it heated, and how do you know when all the Nitric is gone? Thanks again all for helping this newbie out :D
 
Hi briguy2112!

Go to "Gallery"; click post "13gm gold slug", download "inquarting" attchm'nt.

Read it. The answer is there.

Have a good one!

philddreamer
 
briguy2112 said:
How long should I heat it for? I know from reading the forums NOT to boil it. But how long do I need to keep it heated, and how do you know when all the Nitric is gone?
Again, that's all in Hoke, but if you want my slant on the subject, you heat the solution at a low heat, so it slowly evaporates. The admonition to NOT boil is spot on. If you evaporate too quickly, you lose values, something I learned the hard way. Losing the gold wasn't enough, it ended up on the side of my travel trailer, turning the area purple.

So then you heat slowly, allowing the solution to concentrate. Note that as the volume decreases, the temperate can rise, particularly if you are using an evaporating dish.

As the solution gets concentrated, you witness a color shift. If you are working with a relatively clean solution, it will go from orange to red, to a dark brownish red. If you evaporate too far, you can precipitate some of the gold, so don't let it get past a dark red/brown color. You introduce a little HCl, which will help eliminate the excess nitric. If you have done your work well, there will be very little present, and, assuming you have concentrated the solution adequately, when you introduce the HCl, you will see brown fumes emanate from the gold solution. That's the nitric being expelled. Do this three times, or until when you add HCl, you no longer see any fumes escaping.

Again, please read Hoke. All of this has been well documented.

A trick I used, and used for years, with excellent results, was to add a button of gold to the gold chloride solution when I started evaporating. That way, as long as you maintain a little free HCl, any nitric that remains will be consumed by dissolving the gold button. That way you can eliminate the repetitive evaporation and HCl additions. Do remember---if the solution is lacking in free HCl, even though there may be some free nitric present, it won't be expelled. So then, insure there's free HCl present at all times. It does no harm, aside form making it harder to filter without your filter failing. That problem can be addressed simply by diluting the solution well before filtration.

Luck!

Harold
 
Noxx said:
I'm sorry but that's not the case. Urea will remove NOx in solution but not nitric acid. In fact, you can add a handful of urea to red fuming nitric acid to make it "white".
If you want to neutralize an acid, you need a base.

I will take your word for it since I am not an expert on the urea method. I always thought that the urea reacted with the excess nitric acid. If all it does is force out the NOx, what use is it? It would seem that a hot solution can't have very much NOx dissolved in it for very long.
I certainly recognize that a base (lye) will react with an acid to form a salt, but I have never seen anyone here refer to neutralizing the nitric acid that way.
I like the method described by Harold. Reaction with a 24k button during evaporation has always seemed to be the easiest method to destroy any excess nitric acid in the solution.
 
Chemist,

I have adopted a mentality that if you don't add too much nitric when dissolving your gold, it won't have to be removed in the end.

The keys to this approach are first to do some preliminary math on the required amount of nitric to dissolve all of your material, and second to add the nitric in small increments until the metal is totally dissolved. This is something I learned from GSP. I've used Harold's method also, but I prefer not to add the excess acid in the beginning.

I have not had problems with excess nitric in my solutions since adopting this methodology. I don't evaporate, use urea, or add extra gold. I simply add SMB and the gold precipitates. On rare occasion, if I have a slight excess of nitric due to the fact that I could not determine the actual amount of required nitric by calculation, the SMB will foam up and release the brown fumes. For this reason I always fill my beaker no more than 2/3 full of pregnant solution. I also keep a spare empty beaker of equal size on hand in case I have a large foam over. The precipitation is also done with the primary beaker in a flat white corning ware casserole dish.

Steve
 
GSP's recommended method of using only the amount of nitric that is required to do the job is great advice. Problem is, you rarely know exactly how much gold you have present. It is also time consuming to allow acids to work until they are totally exhausted. Not an issue if you are hobby refining, but when I processed for gain, time was everything. I ran behind almost constantly, and could ill afford to allow beakers to sit for hours, hoping to wrest the last bit of nitric from a solution. It makes good ecological sense, but does not make economic sense, not on a commercial basis, especially when you purchase nitric for $4/gallon.

Armed with my comments, above, you can clearly see that when you approximate the amount of gold present, and use a corresponding amount of AR, you will be very close, and accomplish the mission in short order. If there is extra nitric, that insures a speedy dissolution. Adding a button afterwards, during evaporation, takes little time, and is 100% effective in eliminating the free nitric. Do consider that I processed with concentrated solutions, so evaporation was an expected part of the operation. For the record, it was unusual to dissolve more than a quarter ounce of added gold. You get quite good at estimating the content after years of handling the material.

Were I to refine today, I would avoid using urea.

Harold
 
ok Batch 2 a total bust also. I am working with 8 oz of filled and plated jewelry. I am using 300 ML of HCl and 100ml of Nitric. I let it sit for 2 days i added about 100ml more AR after day 1. I end up with a dark green, black solution. I filter it about 4 times to get all the solid material out. I then did the reduce via heat. I added about 100ml more HCL to get all the solids clean. So I had about 400ml of liquid. I reduced it down to about 200ml and then added more hcl to back to 400ml. reduced again, add more hcl to 400. then on the third time I reduced it down to about 150ml. There was a sivelry film on the top and a powdery substance on the bottom. I let it cool for about 6 hours or so, I added about 500ml of distilled water It turned a light green. Then I filtered it like 4 times . I added about 10 grams of SBM in 2 gram increments, but no gold to be seen. No mud, and no gold spongy material. Where did I go wrong? I know there was gold in the material. It was all marked 14k ge or 1/10 GF. I need advice before I try the 3rd batch. I envy all of you that worked to get this process down, because the theory and the practice is 2 totally different thing. Thanks again everyone.
 
Brother bri, you haven't been read'n. If you would have read you would know that the best way to recover gold GP & GF items is to use lazersteves sulphuric cell. Go to his website & watch the video; over & over, before the 3rd batch! You have a big mess in your hands & is 'cause you didn't do your home work! :lol:
Slow down, I know how you feel, anxiuos. Be patient & learn "why" it has to be done "this" way, & NOT "that" way. There's a reason. I made the same mistake; trust me, read.

Have a good one brother!

philddreamer
 
Harold_V said:
GSP's recommended method of using only the amount of nitric that is required to do the job is great advice. Problem is, you rarely know exactly how much gold you have present. It is also time consuming to allow acids to work until they are totally exhausted. Not an issue if you are hobby refining, but when I processed for gain, time was everything. I ran behind almost constantly, and could ill afford to allow beakers to sit for hours, hoping to wrest the last bit of nitric from a solution. It makes good ecological sense, but does not make economic sense, not on a commercial basis, especially when you purchase nitric for $4/gallon.

Armed with my comments, above, you can clearly see that when you approximate the amount of gold present, and use a corresponding amount of AR, you will be very close, and accomplish the mission in short order. If there is extra nitric, that insures a speedy dissolution. Adding a button afterwards, during evaporation, takes little time, and is 100% effective in eliminating the free nitric. Do consider that I processed with concentrated solutions, so evaporation was an expected part of the operation. For the record, it was unusual to dissolve more than a quarter ounce of added gold. You get quite good at estimating the content after years of handling the material.

Were I to refine today, I would avoid using urea.

Harold

You are correct Harold, there is a distinct difference in the amount of time required to perform the incremental process. When I'm in a pinch for time I tend to use your method on occasion.

Steve
 
Harold,

I think you knew that I would have to put in my 2 cents worth on this subject.

There are several ways to successfully refine karat golds. Let me preface this by saying that I truly believe that your method of inquartation and, finally, boiling down is the absolute best method for the members of this forum to use. The reason being is that, if they follow your instructions, this method will work each and every time. For this reason, there will be less frustration for the beginners. Also, since you had to satisfy your customers, I think that your choice of method was the best. However, since the gold I worked was already mine, I never inquarted or boiled down and never will. And, I would bet that our final products were equally pure. Also, I have very successfully used the "minimum amount of nitric" method for 30 years and I don't think you would put me into the category of a hobby refiner.

To everyone else, here's a little of my history and the history of this method:

(1) My first true experience in big time refining started in 1968, when I was hired as Senior Chemist for a new refinery in LA. At that time, this was the largest gold refinery West of the Mississippi. This same company was also the world's largest seller of precious metals plating systems. I was in charge of manufacturing the plating solutions, routinely analyzing and troubleshooting plating systems for our some 1500 customers, assaying refining lots (about 100 fire assays per day), and developing refining systems. Since we were using the refined gold to make plating salts, the necessary gold purity was 9999. At first, the company had big problems producing this purity. They were using AR, ferrous sulfate or SO2, and Wohlwill cells. They didn't want to inquart or boil down because of the time involved and the additional dissolving equipment that was needed.

For about the first six months, our gold was only pure enough to sell - about 9995. To make the plating salts, we had to buy expensive 9999 gold on the open market. Most of the gold we were refining (usually powder) came from processing electronic materials and the workers used premixed AR. I eventually discovered a unique chelating agent that would drop 9999 gold. It actually worked better with a lot of extra nitric in the AR and it chelated the base metals, kept them in solution, and prevented them from contaminating the precipitated gold. This eliminated any need for inquartation, boiling down, or Wohlwill cells. At that point, my method was adopted and was used to refine hundreds of thousands of ounces of 9999 gold, over a period of several years.

The chelating agent was expensive, however, and, it could have been eliminated or reduced, had I known about the "minimum nitric" (and, purifying in the melt) method at that time.

(2) I started my own refinery in about 1972 and used the chelating agent to drop the gold. In 1979, I went to work for a guy that used the "minimum nitric" method. He and David Fell were childhood friends and had worked together for the largest karat gold refiner in LA - where they learned the business. I don't know if Dave also used the method or if my boss had invented it. I do know that I have never heard of any other refiner using it and have never seen it in print. My boss used twelve 4 liter beakers (each with a cover and attached exhaust hose that took all the fumes to a manifold and then to a scrubber) to dissolve the gold and, in 1979-1980, we had so much karat gold scrap that the 12 beakers were always being used. We also sometimes used a 50 gallon glass-lined, steam-heated Pfaudler kettle, when we were over-burdened with too much scrap for the beakers.

His method was to first cover the karat gold jewelry (as is) with HCl and heat it. Then, he would add a splash of HNO3 from a gallon jug and let it react. This was repeated until an addition of HNO3 produced no reaction. At this point, either it all was dissolved or more HCl was needed. He would then add more HCl. If nothing happened, it was finished. If the HCl produced a reaction, he let it work until the reaction subsided and then added more nitric. He used the HCl and HNO3 separately, back and forth, until there was no reaction from an addition of either. He never estimated or measured either acid, yet never overshot the nitric. He had done this so many times, he just knew, by looking, when he had added the right amount. He dropped the gold with sodium sulfite and cleaned the gold with fluxes in a gas crucible furnace. If he couldn't get the gold to at least 9995 (maybe 5% of the lots), he used a big set of 6" rolls to roll the bar super thin and then quickly redissolved it in AR. From start to finish, the gold was always done in one day - usually 8 to 5.

Anything that didn't dissolve in the AR (maybe 5%) was accumulated and treated separately at a later date. He had a quirk that he didn't want anyone to rinse the yellow out of the filter papers. They were accumulated and burned and the yield was used to throw a party. Since all the gold was already bought and paid for, he didn't have to satisfy anyone as far as the yield was concerned. It was a fun place to work.

(3) When I owned my next refinery, I started estimating the amounts of acids needed. This was mainly done to make sure I had an excess of HCl to start with. That way, I didn't have to do the back-and-forth thing with the acids. When an addition of HNO3 produced no reaction, I knew it was finished. For karat gold, instead of using the customary 120 ml of HCl/ounce, I used 150 ml. I didn't worry about the nitric, since I was good enough by then to know when I had added exactly enough. I usually measured it out into a beaker, though, as a precaution against having a brain f**t and dumping in too much by adding it straight from the jug.

(4) To use the "minimum nitric" method, you should keep these things in mind:

(a) Any mixture of HCl and HNO3 will dissolve gold. You don't need 3 to 1 or 4 to 1 AR. As an example, for one certain type of application, I always used a 50% Nitric/45% water/5% HCl to dissolve the gold.

(b) When dissolving a quantity of metal, both the HCl and HNO3 are consumed at definite rates for each. In the case of gold, when only one of the acids has been totally used up, the dissolution of the gold will cease.

(c) For dissolving gold or gold alloys, I haven't pre-mixed aqua regia for the last 30 years and will never do it again. When you pre-mix it, it is very likely that you'll need to use urea or to boil-down, both of which I have a tremendous aversion for.

(5) I'm not going to go into details on using this method, since I have gone over it many times on this forum. All I will say is that it is simple and fast (especially when the alternative is boiling-down) and it works. Like Steve just said, you just have to adjust your mentality.
 
nice one ! should be read by all new members and not only. i shall move the post below the board policy. great spare of time for everyone! :p
 

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