Home Made Safe ?

[Noxx]

Hey Guys (and gals),

A friend of mine and I are building a safe for my business (storing all the gold and diamonds) and one for him.

We are still in the designing phase but we already bought a few things:

- 346 pounds of steel (my safe will be 2' x 1' x 1' where his will be 1' x 1' x 1')

It's steel plates, 1/2'' thick.

$85 CAD in a scrap yard ($75 US)

It was quite a challenge to pack that steel in my civic lol

- Two LaGard group II combination locks

http://cgi.ebay.ca/ws/eBayISAPI.dll?ViewItem&ssPageName=STRK:MEWNX:IT&item=380135673983

We will keep you updated on how the building goes.

 

[patnor1011]

hehe you remind me my good friend... when he needs something, he opt to buil it himself...

 

[Noxx]

I always consider that option first in order to save some money

 

[jimdoc]

Noxx,
With those sizes don't forget to design how to
fasten it securely so it doesn't walk away. You
would be surprised how many safes get stolen.
I read once that some crooks got caught with
a safe they stole from a church, they rented
torches to open it, that is what got them caught.
The safe was empty, or maybe there was one
penny in there.
Jim

 

[Noxx]

It will weigh more than 100 pounds and will be screwed in concrete (floor).

 

[Palladium]

Not to discourage you but, Huuuummmmm.

Harold, your a machinist. I know from experience that working with that thickness of material is not easy, even when you have the proper tools and equipment.

What does your plan or blue prints include at this point Noxx. Just trying to give you an idea of what it takes to weld up a safe. Then you have to have the locking system down pat. I think the unit you saw on eBay is only the control mechanism of the lock. You still need the actual locking mechanism it's self. Then you have to mount it which will require holes set on a pattern. Considering that is 1 in steel you just can't drill holes all the way thru it and bolt it up from the outside because all someone would have to do is grind the heads of the bolts and the lock would fall off. So it will have to be drilled and tapped out ( threaded ) Then you have to have a hinge system for the door to mount to. Holes thru the bottom so you can mount it to the floor. If the metal is not perfectly flat it will have to be milled to get a tight fit for the door seal. Plus welding and grinding all your seams. Cutting the original 1 in plate with a torch will leave a rough edge that will have to be ground smooth. When i use to have my steel package made for my furnaces i outsourced it to a company down the road who cut my steel with a cnc Plasma Cutter http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Z6vzES81Clk That's the way to go.

Anyway, just some points to ponder.

 

[Harold_V]

Harold, your a machinist. I know from experience that working with that thickness of material is not easy, even when you have the proper tools and equipment.

To those with the proper equipment, even 1" thick steel is not a challenge. If you're trying to work it with hand tools, that's a whole different matter.

A safe isn't safe unless it can't be torch cut or moved easily. A person is far better served to purchase a high quality floor safe and have it cemented in place than to buy or build a safe that can be moved easily. 100 pounds isn't enough to deter the average thief, let alone one hell bent on stealing. Even bolted to the floor, they would be more than willing to dismantle the fastening system, assuming it was exposed.

A good option to pursue, assuming one can be located, is one of the old cannon ball type safes that used to be used in vaults at banks, to secure high value objects (diamonds, cash, gold). They are relatively small in size as far as the storage capacity is concerned, but are virtually impossible to move. They generally tip the scales in excess of a ton, often more, and have a capacity of about a cubic foot. They should also offer fire protection.

An all steel safe would not secure valuables against fire, nor from the thief's torch. If a safe is to be made torch proof, it must be made of laminated materials, alternating layers of stainless and mild steel, for example. A refractory portion is also desirable, to prevent fire damage. An all steel safe readily gets to a destructive temperature in a fire. That wouldn't be an issue with gold or diamonds, but any paperwork stored within would be at risk.

I would consider any safe that can be moved easily by two people to not be a safe at all. The minimum weight I'd consider would be 500 pounds, and that would be a light-weight safe in my estimation.

Bottom line on all of this is if insurance is desired, an approved safe will be required by the insurer. It would pay to investigate what is acceptable before taking the plunge into building a safe that may not be acceptable. I know that the safe I have, which weighs a ton, is only 28" square, and laminated, with nitro seals, does not qualify. It is a turn-of-the-century Sergeant-Greenleaf that came from a US postoffice.

Harold

 

[Palladium]

Maybe a fire proof filing cabinet. I use to have one that i kept all my important papers in at the office. It must have weighted 3-4 hundred lbs and was rate for fire safety for 4 hours. I paid $ 100.00 bill for it used.

 

[golddie]

Hi Palladium
I have seen those cabinets taken apart by crooks.
You don't even need a torch for that

I have wanted to build a safe too
I had one safe that i thought was a safe but it really was a old cabinet with a combination lock
I didn't have experience then
It was very big so you could not carry it away but a person could have drilled the side of the safe with an ordinary drill
Thank God Nobody could rob me.


To buy a good safe you have to spend a lot of money
If you put it together by welding with a jewelers torch,then the crook could come to your place and use the same torch that you used to weld and he could take it apart.

I am like Noxx in this way.
I need a safe but I dont want to spend the money for it.

 

[jimdoc]

When I moved a few years ago, we left a great big safe at the old house because it would have been too much work to get it out. If
you check craigslist there are often people looking to get rid of a safe free or cheap just because they need to get rid of it. I was told by a safe dealer that there is little savings in getting a used safe, because as long as it hasn't been broken into it is still the same
as a new one. People not wanting to move them is where you can get them for free or cheap. I have even seen old gun safes on craigslist for free, but I didn't want to deal with having to move it
either, so I passed on them.

 

[Anonymous]

Noxx will your insurance company insure the contents of an unapproved home made safe.

I think your safe has to meet certain specifications for certification, otherwise your just as well off burying your valuables in a coffee tin at night.

Vault burglary classifications
Modular vaults carry three UL Burglary classifications: Class M, 1, and 2. There are other classifications.
Rating Insurance Coverage Notes
Class M $1,000,000 Entry level. Similar to a TRTL-15x6 safe.
Class 1 $2,000,000 to $5,000,000 Standard
Class 2 Up to $10,000,000 Top of the line.

A UL Class 1 vault is guaranteed to withstand a break-in attempt for 30 minutes, a Class 2 for 60 minutes, and a Class 3 for 120 minutes

 

[Lou]

Choosing a safe depends on what you plan on storing and how much of it. To get affordable insurance, you must play by their rules and it will NOT be cheap--some of the nicer safes cost $70K.

Noxx, you could build a very tough safe to crack if you wanted to take the time. Might be worth it, but don't expect any insurance company to buy it.

 

[Anonymous]

Any thief with a bottle of compressed air ( scuba tank ) and a suitcase plasma cutter good for maybe 20 minutes of cutting with this set up could cut through any exotic metal used to manufacture a safe.

Your 1/2 mild steel safe is no challenge to a thief, if it were me making a safe I would use titanium heavy wall pipe with a couple of rings welded near the top.

The rings is where your dead bolt is going to locate when locked, the lid is a nice fit inside once seated is flush with the top of the pipe. Once the safe is set into concrete level with the floor makes cutting difficult makes the use of shivs and pry bars impossible as they are not able to pass below the top welded ring.

Ideally you want a lock with three dead bolts evenly spaced.

Gouging a chisel into the lid will only spin the lid within the two welded rings. You do not want any hinges on your safe any hinge becomes a weak spot.

Many years ago I designed a lock similar to the one shown in the attached picture, purpose of the lock was to secure the underground storage tanks found at service stations to prevent the theft of gasoline and diesel.

The only difference from the drawing is my prototype had an O-Ring incorporated into the design to keep water out.

The fuel companies rejected the idea with technology thought up over a beer, they opted for float level detectors to activate an alarm should the level of the tank drop,

I laughed like hell when I learned this as any good thief would have brought a tank of water to replace the fuel being removed from said tank.

 

[Platdigger]

Nice idea gustavus.
What moves the dead bolts? A key? Seems that would be the weak spot.
Or do you have another mechanism or way to move them to lock?

 

[Anonymous]

Nice idea gustavus.
What moves the dead bolts? A key? Seems that would be the weak spot.
Or do you have another mechanism or way to move them to lock?

The key used was one of those circular types that are not easy to pick, Two dead bolts were connected to a cam, the cam would not move unless the proper key was inserted.

This was only a prototype, the finished device could have been a weld on for new tank construction or threaded to replace older locking caps.

Gasoline theft from underground storage tanks is more prevalent than one would think, they like to keep it out of the news.

Here is a cap advertised for $425.00 and it does not even come close to being as secure as the one I designed. The one shown on the picture has ridges that a pry bar can gain purchase. If you knew how easy the caps slip off the cam lock you would agree.

The cap advertised is aimed at the mom and pop service stations, or the independent owner.

http://www.universalboot.com/ub/underground-fuel-tank-lock.php

 

[golddie]

Hi gustavus
You are a person of many talents
How about the idea of making the top and the sides of the safe similar to your idea and buying a ready made door
here is one I found very quikly

http://www.vaultdoors.net/

 

[markqf1]

Don't forget concrete and steel.
It's cheap and easy and can be very time consuming to breach.
It can also be placed by people that aren't that knowledgable about safes.
A little inlay for fire protection and, It would take a stick of dynomite to penetrate it , in short order.

Mark

 

[grainsofgold]

I would recommend that you get to know a good locksmith near you. Then keep an eye out for a jeweler that is closing up shop or a pharmacy. They usually have high rated safes.

My reasoning is that as you grow your business you will grow into the cost of a high rated safe and be able to get insurance that will cover the contents. A safe that you make yourself will almost never be accepted by an insurance underwriter.

You can get a decent smaller *TR 30 x 6 for $3-4K maybe less if you keep your eyes open. Make sure that if you buy a used safe that the company will come and install it for you, re combo the locks for you and make sure that the UL label is on the safe. No UL label means don't buy it.

If you go for a **TR TL 30 x 6 you can find these $4-6K which will insure up to $1million USD of contents.

* TR = Tool resistant by Underwriters lab, TR30 X 6 means tool resistant for 30 minutes on all 6 sides of the safe.
** TRTL = tool and torch resistant by underwriters lab, TR TL X 6 means tool and torrch resistant for 30 minutes on all 6 sides.


I think its great that you want to make a safe, but when it comes to security don't take any short cuts. If your homemade safe fails you could potentially be sued for product liability- Not worth the risk.

There are several of us on this forum who have been there done that in terms of business. If you ask and take advantage of what we suggest you can save yourself a ton of money in the long term.

When I started out I didn't know much and I wish I had a 1/10th of all the money I wasted along the way.

Learn from our mistakes and you will become a richer, wiser man.

 

[Anonymous]

One day I dropped in to visit an old acquaintance whom I had not seen in 8 years, he had turned into a crack head.

Noxx just to give you an idea on how secure your goods are, these guys had a truck mounted forklift sitting in the driveway the truck was stolen a week before and was used for various jobs err heists.

It was hilarious here sat a stolen truck that had run out of fuel in the thief's driveway and could not get it restarted once they had put fuel into it. They don't call them crack heads for nothing.

I vamoosed from the scene within minutes of hearing enough details to know this is where I did not belong nor want to be.

 

[Oz]

Often a safe (unless very pricy) is best used as a diversion. Any thief knows the valuables are in the safe, right? Solutions containing 10-40 grams per liter would typically be left alone.

Taken to an extreme I once told a guy who was concerned with the government confiscating his gold savings to precipitate his gold and wash it well. Then to mix it 25:75 gold/potting soil (it is all brown), and grow some indoor house plants in it. Who would think to look?