How to suspend a copper bar?

[heliman4141]

Hello fellow refiners!
I attempted to use the search eng multiple times but I just cannot get the necessary answer im looking for so decided id place an inquiry.

What I have is 2 almost full, 5 gallon buckets of exhausted acid........ and could definatly use some input as to how to properly hang a copper slab on ea. one into the solution for PMs recovery where I can still place the buckets lids back on to stop any fumes from escaping. I have new 1lb pure 999 copper slabs I purchased long ago as investment and am quite willing to use 2 of them for PM recovery, no prob there. Prob is how with lids back in place.

Ive also read that placing a fishtank bubbler with the line weighted down is a very good way to keep things stirred up, sounds great but again, no one has explained how to do that & still be able to replace the lids to stop fumes. Where I reside, everything must always be covered as soon as possible so I cannot do this in open buckets for extended periods, so im open to all suggestions.

Only idea I personally could come up with was drilling holes with grommets installed upper lip then inserting a plastic rod thru them & hanging the copper with something that acid would not dissolve such as H/D fishing line maybe? But that is all I can come up with & maybe a small hole for the bubbler up top too near the buckets lip with a grommet in it?




Thanks in advance,

Dave

 

[Digitaria]

Hello Dave, I have just completed my first cementing out process, using a large flat disk of copper to cement out the precious metals, that were in solution. It looks quite drastic when you first see the black sediment almost fuse, to your copper and you have to scrub it off. I never needed a bubbler and I was using a 5 gallon bucket because, as a result of scraping off the black sediment and refreshing the surface of the bus copper, you are effectively agitating the solution and freshening everything up.

I was not in a hurry and this process was completed over three days, so I am pretty sure everything that was valuable settled as a very fine sediment, which I might add was so very fine, and clogged the filters which needed changing often and setting aside. Come to think of it, maybe you could use a copper plate or something as this has a large surface area, front and back and keep your investment bar, for just that, an investment?
I can't answer your technical questions, but I thought you could benefit from my recent encounter? Maybe things don't have to be complicated? Even filtering was a mission... :lol: So anything that makes the process smoother, for me is a must.

Good Luck, Dave

 

[necromancer]

#1 for the copper bar just don't fill your bucket to the top, leave some space (4 inches) to put in a bar that is measured to the length of the bucket
(leaving room for the cap to go back on)

#1a drill a hole in the copper bar, you can tie a thin polypropylene string to the copper bar and let it hang out of the bucket
(between the bucket and the bucket top) just make sure its thin enough to not let the fumes out

#2 there is some great ideas here on the forum to make a cheap scrubber with basic plastic plumbing parts, activated charcoal & litmus paper
this you can use in combination with the bubbler to catch the exhaust fumes

search for "scrubber, activated charcoal" i think 4metals had a post about scrubbers


hope this helps you

i see someone beat me to the post so i will remove the part about having to take off the blackness off your copper bar

 

[heliman4141]

Hello Dave, I have just completed my first cementing out process, using a large flat disk of copper to cement out the precious metals, that were in solution. It looks quite drastic when you first see the black sediment almost fuse, to your copper and you have to scrub it off. I never needed a bubbler and I was using a 5 gallon bucket because, as a result of scraping off the black sediment and refreshing the surface of the bus copper, you are effectively agitating the solution and freshening everything up.

I was not in a hurry and this process was completed over three days, so I am pretty sure everything that was valuable settled as a very fine sediment, which I might add was so very fine, and clogged the filters which needed changing often and setting aside. Come to think of it, maybe you could use a copper plate or something as this has a large surface area, front and back and keep your investment bar, for just that, an investment?
I can't answer your technical questions, but I thought you could benefit from my recent encounter? Maybe things don't have to be complicated? Even filtering was a mission... :lol: So anything that makes the process smoother, for me is a must.

Good Luck, Dave

Hello Digitaria,
I didn't realize id be scraping off the bar, thought it would just need a shake or would be slowly dissolved etc...Waste removal & PM recovery from it is a learning process still......
Im a Plumber and have access to all sizes of copper pipes, but no large plates of it except small thin flashing at the local lumberyard.

Where did you get your large flat pc. if I may ask?

I now understand that the copper should sit in the tank from the bottom to the top of the acid mix. I think now Ill just place a large pc. in the buckets sideways from bottom to the top of the acids with a plastic string hanging out to grab to place as much surface area as possible to it, but still im stumped where to get a chunk of copper that large & wide that is flat?

Im in no hurry & won't be doing any filtering, I plan to dump out the upper excess acids & leave the PMs at the bottom for recovery later this Fall, I still have a LOT of refining stuff to do this Summer, I just want to be able to do this then start the process of neutralizing the leftover wastes so I can properly dispose of them so Ill only end up with 3 buckets, one the recovery bucket, one with the wastes ready to go into it, and lastly the one that im neutralizing in steps to filter then remove the water once ive raised PH to 7 & its clear of salts etc..

Dave.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Dave,

You can take a piece of scrap pipe the length you need, cut it down it's length, then spread it open and pound it flat with a hammer.

Dave

 

[necromancer]

Dave,

You can take a piece of scrap pipe the length you need, cut it down it's length, then spread it open and pound it flat with a hammer.

Dave

great idea since your a plumber,

Dave C.

PS. there is a whole lot of dave's on this forum, good thing we are not all in the same room, could get confusing :lol:

 

[heliman4141]

Dave,

You can take a piece of scrap pipe the length you need, cut it down it's length, then spread it open and pound it flat with a hammer.

Dave

Thanks Dave,
I had considered using some 3/4" I have, just wasn't sure what to do with it & being round would be a pita to scrape, cutting & flattening I can certainly do! Do you think 1 pc. is enough or should I hang several at once for more surface contact?

Dave

 

[heliman4141]

Dave,

You can take a piece of scrap pipe the length you need, cut it down it's length, then spread it open and pound it flat with a hammer.

Dave

great idea since your a plumber,

Dave C.

PS. there is a whole lot of dave's on this forum, good thing we are not all in the same room, could get confusing :lol:

There IS a lot of Dave's here .............................. could change mine to drippy since im a Plumber to avoid confusion & at my age there IS some confusion LOL...............! :mrgreen:

Drats, work becons so must run, im sort of on call ( emergencys etc..).

Thanks for the input guys.

Drippy dave 8)

 

[Digitaria]

Hi Dave,

The copper - I have is flat round, copper tray, but something similar to this, if you are using a bucket, makes sense to me. And if its quite large, just place it at an angle. My spent acid, by the way did not give off alot of fumes either. My bucket was covered with plywood, if your bucket needs to be covered like you said then perhaps, you could leave your lid on, and drill somewhere around the top / side of the bucket, that way the rain would not get it. But with holes in the side, if its knocked over, it will spill so some sturdy wooden box housing might secure it safely?

Its all good stuff, but intensive learning at the moment. Best for both of us, to listen to these guys and get into good habits.

http://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/copper-plate-with-Egyptian-design-of-pharoah-/271428579636?pt=UK_Antiques_DecorativeAntiques_Collectables_EH&hash=item3f32677134

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Thanks Dave,
I had considered using some 3/4" I have, just wasn't sure what to do with it & being round would be a pita to scrape, cutting & flattening I can certainly do! Do you think 1 pc. is enough or should I hang several at once for more surface contact?

Dave

You can use as many as you want. They're reusable so you don't lose anything by using several. The key to cementation reactions is circulation of the solution. Stir the solution from time to time to keep it moving.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about drilling holes and hanging the copper. Just cut the pieces long enough to reach from one side at the bottom to near the top on the other side. You get maximum exposure and you can reach in and grab a piece at the top to give it a stir when it's convenient.

Dave

 

[heliman4141]

Thanks Dave,
I had considered using some 3/4" I have, just wasn't sure what to do with it & being round would be a pita to scrape, cutting & flattening I can certainly do! Do you think 1 pc. is enough or should I hang several at once for more surface contact?

Dave

You can use as many as you want. They're reusable so you don't lose anything by using several. The key to cementation reactions is circulation of the solution. Stir the solution from time to time to keep it moving.

Personally, I wouldn't worry about drilling holes and hanging the copper. Just cut the pieces long enough to reach from one side at the bottom to near the top on the other side. You get maximum exposure and you can reach in and grab a piece at the top to give it a stir when it's convenient.

Dave

DOH!
Why that idea did not occur to me Ill never know, must be that frisky Oldtimers again. So many ways to skin a cat as they say.
Splitting small 3/4" pipes & then flattnening..........hmmmmmm, I do have an air chisel I could use, that would probably be the easiest way. I was a bit hesitant about using my pristene 999 bars to be honest, if I could avoid it.
Ive got plenty of new 3/4" copper stock laying around tho. Ill make up 3-4 of them. Do you guys use a plastic scraper on the copper or a stiff plastic brush?
Just wondering what is easiest & least messy.

Dave

 

[niteliteone]

You don't really need to cut it open, as long as you beat it flat enough the solution doesn't have any space or cavities to sit in inside the pipe.

 

[maynman1751]

You don't really need to cut it open, as long as you beat it flat enough the solution doesn't have any space or cavities to sit in inside the pipe.

Also, after continued use, eventually the entire piece of copper will be 'consumed' releasing any values that may be trapped inside the pipe. It isn't really necessary to remove all of the values coating the copper. Just keep using the same piece to cement until it's totally dissolved. You have to remember that cementing is a 'transfer' process. The copper goes into solution and the values cement out replacing the copper. That may not be the exact explanation, but you know what I mean.

 

[Anonymous]

Heatsinks out of DL380 G4 servers are great. Lots of copper fins that you can separate out, and use independently and a lovely big block of copper at the bottom. Strip the aluminium case off first though.

I'm not suggesting you buy them necessarily however there are a few IT recyclers on this forum in the US that would probably (like me) get loads of these and would possibly be happy to help.

 

[heliman4141]

Heatsinks out of DL380 G4 servers are great. Lots of copper fins that you can separate out, and use independently and a lovely big block of copper at the bottom. Strip the aluminium case off first though.

I'm not suggesting you buy them necessarily however there are a few IT recyclers on this forum in the US that would probably (like me) get loads of these and would possibly be happy to help.

Im a BIG copper hoarder, ive got about 100lbs. of solid copper heatsinks, hundreds of 1lbs 999 bars & hundreds & hunderds of pounds of pre-82 pennys. And im still dumping my pennys once a week into my Copper penny discriminator. Copper is no issue at this end. LOL.........Poor mans Gold. I keep hoping Copper prices will soar eventually & I wouldn't mind seeing the Feds stop making 1c pcs. Then I could sell my Copper pennys to a salvage yard that had a Rydale sorter. Part of my metal portfolio........ :mrgreen:

Dave

 

[heliman4141]

You don't really need to cut it open, as long as you beat it flat enough the solution doesn't have any space or cavities to sit in inside the pipe.

Thanks, makes sense and saves me work.


Dave

 

[heliman4141]

You don't really need to cut it open, as long as you beat it flat enough the solution doesn't have any space or cavities to sit in inside the pipe.

Also, after continued use, eventually the entire piece of copper will be 'consumed' releasing any values that may be trapped inside the pipe. It isn't really necessary to remove all of the values coating the copper. Just keep using the same piece to cement until it's totally dissolved. You have to remember that cementing is a 'transfer' process. The copper goes into solution and the values cement out replacing the copper. That may not be the exact explanation, but you know what I mean.

Thanks again also.
I sort of figured the acids would still eat away at the Copper.

Dave

 

[FrugalRefiner]

It's true that you don't have to cut the pipe open, but it does effectively double the surface area. The inside of a pipe doesn't get much circulation, so there's not much cementing action going on. Splitting it open turns the inside into more outside.

I also like to track different batches of scrap for accountability. That's easier to do if it's flat.

Dave

 

[Pantherlikher]

Way over thinking this part of the process.

Cut some copper. Drop in the bucket and let sit. You need some sort of opening to allow gas to release so it doesn't pressurize and blow the lid off. Every time you get near the bucket, give it a swirl. When you are ready to add more spent solution, move some of the contents into the next bucket with steel to remove copper.

Points of interest:
You should never have more then half a bucket of waste solution combined. Any more and you are hoarding. STOP IT...

Wash what ever copper you use off first with dish soap to remove oil and dirt.

Any liquids doing something, ie. digesting, needs some sort of vent so it does not pressurize and cause an "accident".

Buckets or anything relating to this field definately needs to be secure enough so there will be no! "accidents" period.

Be safe and remove the possibilities of problems. Like having an elephant in the room.

B.S.

 

[heliman4141]

It's true that you don't have to cut the pipe open, but it does effectively double the surface area. The inside of a pipe doesn't get much circulation, so there's not much cementing action going on. Splitting it open turns the inside into more outside.

I also like to track different batches of scrap for accountability. That's easier to do if it's flat.

Dave

Yes,
After some consideration I purchased a locking H/D dremel cutting wheel, need one for work anyway & Im going to cut the pipes in 1/2 on both sides, it cutss them like hard butter so very easy to do then much easier to flatten also.


Dave