How to turn waste into reusable materials
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What sort of waste:
AR, AP, HCl-Cl, Electrolytic Cell?
Steve
AR, AP, HCl-Cl, Electrolytic Cell?
Steve
Hi Steve!
Mainly AR and also waste from refing silver with nitric acid.
These would be secondary in importance to me AP, HCl-Cl, Electrolytic Cell?
I see that most of our waste has some kind of value to others.
This is obvious but I just discovered it.
I see thing like these being sold
Ferric Chloride
Ferric Nitrate
Ferrous Sulfate
Cupric Chloride
Cupric Nitrate
Cupric Sulfate
Cupric Sulfate, Crystal,
And many more
So I said why not try to turn the waste into products of these sorts
Mainly AR and also waste from refing silver with nitric acid.
These would be secondary in importance to me AP, HCl-Cl, Electrolytic Cell?
I see that most of our waste has some kind of value to others.
This is obvious but I just discovered it.
I see thing like these being sold
Ferric Chloride
Ferric Nitrate
Ferrous Sulfate
Cupric Chloride
Cupric Nitrate
Cupric Sulfate
Cupric Sulfate, Crystal,
And many more
So I said why not try to turn the waste into products of these sorts
A
Anonymous
Guest
I would say that purity would be the main issue, hard to sell copper chloride with just a tad of iron chloride if you know what I mean.
Seem the recrystalization to purify would eat a lot of time up.
Jim
Seem the recrystalization to purify would eat a lot of time up.
Jim
I say we can use these with some chemistry in our recovery processes, sure they will be a little impure but once made to crystals recrystallizing is easy to get purer products, the only thing is cost of evaporating, and it does take time, but in a crock pot set it and check on couple of times, there is some time involved also but I enjoy it so time fly's for me.
I would rather spend on that than deal with all the waste we can generate, it can help to teach us chemistry, work our minds, and creative juices, less impact on our environment, give us some useful chemicals, I feel its worth the trouble to try this, I just used 5 gallons of copper sulfate for removing silver from plated garage cell junk,using electrolysis, this copper sulfate came from distilling nitric acid (homemade), now I have replaced the copper from this copper sulfate with Iron (steel) from deplating silver plated steel scrap from the second hand store, I will evaporate this down in a crock pot, and dry this Iron sulfate,this is used to drop copper from solutions, or It can be burnt to generate SO2 gas, this could be used as SO2, or made into H2SO4, or oleum or ?,
That is fairly good for buying some nitrate fertilizer and some battery acid to De-plate my gold plated copper pins, and making nitric acid,and copper sulfate,at the same time then using these chemicals to recover more metals, and still have a useful byproduct.
I just love Iron's saying "Everything but the squeal" guess this thinking come from some of that Indian blood in my veins, some people see trash, I see something useful.
look at these circuit boards, most people seen trash, how much of these valuable metals are in dumps?
I would rather spend on that than deal with all the waste we can generate, it can help to teach us chemistry, work our minds, and creative juices, less impact on our environment, give us some useful chemicals, I feel its worth the trouble to try this, I just used 5 gallons of copper sulfate for removing silver from plated garage cell junk,using electrolysis, this copper sulfate came from distilling nitric acid (homemade), now I have replaced the copper from this copper sulfate with Iron (steel) from deplating silver plated steel scrap from the second hand store, I will evaporate this down in a crock pot, and dry this Iron sulfate,this is used to drop copper from solutions, or It can be burnt to generate SO2 gas, this could be used as SO2, or made into H2SO4, or oleum or ?,
That is fairly good for buying some nitrate fertilizer and some battery acid to De-plate my gold plated copper pins, and making nitric acid,and copper sulfate,at the same time then using these chemicals to recover more metals, and still have a useful byproduct.
I just love Iron's saying "Everything but the squeal" guess this thinking come from some of that Indian blood in my veins, some people see trash, I see something useful.
look at these circuit boards, most people seen trash, how much of these valuable metals are in dumps?
Refiner232121
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2009
- Messages
- 177
Hi Butcher
How do you the impurities out .
Do you add water and evaporate a few times
How do you the impurities out .
Do you add water and evaporate a few times
A
Anonymous
Guest
with electrolysis you can regenerate the sulfuric acid directly, then boil down to concentrate the acid.
You need copper cathode and lead anode(lead gets covered with lead sulfate that for the most part passivates it to the sulfuric).
Unless you do this just right the copper will just be spongy stuff, but I use the spongy stuff to add to left overs for the replacement of trace precious metals.
I have been able to sell the copper also by putting it is a press and pressing it into pucks (idea from Steves cd) and the quickly sintering them with reducing flame from the torch.
I have been getting #2 price this way without actually having to melt the copper.
Jim
You need copper cathode and lead anode(lead gets covered with lead sulfate that for the most part passivates it to the sulfuric).
Unless you do this just right the copper will just be spongy stuff, but I use the spongy stuff to add to left overs for the replacement of trace precious metals.
I have been able to sell the copper also by putting it is a press and pressing it into pucks (idea from Steves cd) and the quickly sintering them with reducing flame from the torch.
I have been getting #2 price this way without actually having to melt the copper.
Jim
getting impuritys out would somewhat depend on the chemicals involved,and the impurity's involved.
sometimes we may be able to make them insoluble with some chemical or metal, sometimes we may be able to boil them off as gas, or distill them, sometimes using electrolisis, or through concentrating till they crystalize, science and manufactures seem to get there products fairly pure when they want to.
I do not try to compete with manufacturer with my byproduct, but I do try to see where I can use it. and beutiful copper sulfate crystals are really easy to grow through evaporation and crystalization. recrystalization can improve them.
sometimes we may be able to make them insoluble with some chemical or metal, sometimes we may be able to boil them off as gas, or distill them, sometimes using electrolisis, or through concentrating till they crystalize, science and manufactures seem to get there products fairly pure when they want to.
I do not try to compete with manufacturer with my byproduct, but I do try to see where I can use it. and beutiful copper sulfate crystals are really easy to grow through evaporation and crystalization. recrystalization can improve them.
PreciousMexpert
Well-known member
For example what would be the name of the waste here
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=320
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=52&t=320
You make it tough on a feller to answer question's.
there will be a few, lets say he started with copper chloride and added steel (iron)
CuCl2 (aq) + Fe (s) --> Cu (s) + FeCl
above we see that the copper chloride was replaced by iron in solution and if complete we have a new solution of Iron chloride.
now I am sure there were other base metals in this solution, if so and they are above Iron in the reactivity series they will be there as chlorides in solution, if lower than Iron they will be mixed with the copper eamp;e gold would be mixed with the copper powders, insoluble in ferrous chloride solution.
then he neutralized the solution to PH 7, here it is a bit tricky for me to give a good answer, I will try best I can,
this would eliminate the solution from being acidic, but it is not a base either, many of the metals would precipitate out as the no longer have the acid to hold them in solution, the metals higher in the reactivity series will still be there, mostly the metals above hydrogen that would react in water, Iron may also be mixed in as oxidized rusty salty water
FeCL3 + 3NaOH --> Fe(OH)3 + 3NaCl
iron chloride and sodium hydroxide would make iron hydroxide and table salt and water.
now there are still other reactive metals high in series, and depending on his processes there can be sulfides sulfates.
if he would have brought PH up high to a high alkaline many of these metals higher in series would drop as hydroxides and if removed then solution brought back to neutral pH his salt water solution would contain less metal, have you seen the post on dealing with waste that discusses this?
if you are looking at recovery of waste I would use them before you got to this point with them, steves post here is showing you how to deal with this chemical to remove copper and dangerous metals and to neutralize acids to a safe salt to dispose of more enviromentally friendly method drying the water out is advisable before disposing on amnesty day.
if its wet or liquid it would be considered sludge and hazardous waste
dry its not sludge.
there will be a few, lets say he started with copper chloride and added steel (iron)
CuCl2 (aq) + Fe (s) --> Cu (s) + FeCl
above we see that the copper chloride was replaced by iron in solution and if complete we have a new solution of Iron chloride.
now I am sure there were other base metals in this solution, if so and they are above Iron in the reactivity series they will be there as chlorides in solution, if lower than Iron they will be mixed with the copper eamp;e gold would be mixed with the copper powders, insoluble in ferrous chloride solution.
then he neutralized the solution to PH 7, here it is a bit tricky for me to give a good answer, I will try best I can,
this would eliminate the solution from being acidic, but it is not a base either, many of the metals would precipitate out as the no longer have the acid to hold them in solution, the metals higher in the reactivity series will still be there, mostly the metals above hydrogen that would react in water, Iron may also be mixed in as oxidized rusty salty water
FeCL3 + 3NaOH --> Fe(OH)3 + 3NaCl
iron chloride and sodium hydroxide would make iron hydroxide and table salt and water.
now there are still other reactive metals high in series, and depending on his processes there can be sulfides sulfates.
if he would have brought PH up high to a high alkaline many of these metals higher in series would drop as hydroxides and if removed then solution brought back to neutral pH his salt water solution would contain less metal, have you seen the post on dealing with waste that discusses this?
if you are looking at recovery of waste I would use them before you got to this point with them, steves post here is showing you how to deal with this chemical to remove copper and dangerous metals and to neutralize acids to a safe salt to dispose of more enviromentally friendly method drying the water out is advisable before disposing on amnesty day.
if its wet or liquid it would be considered sludge and hazardous waste
dry its not sludge.
Refiner232121
Well-known member
- Joined
- Jul 4, 2009
- Messages
- 177
Hi Richard
How did you do this
I have posts on both of these. this is just overveiw, there is more detail in other posts.
Distilling nitric from fertilizer and new battery acid in this same batch I dissolve pin's copper with gold plating, the copper makes a copper sulfate, left behind with undissolved gold flakes, water is added to this warm copper sulfate solution diluting the water soluble copper sulfate, gold flakes are seperated, and the copper sulfate is saved for later use.
Now the silver coated copper items bought from second hand store, cut to fit jar most just in strip's , but one is cut in circle to fit jar bottom it has a long tang, think of a circle with one long rectangle still attached, this tang is bent up for the cathode (Battery minus), the anodes are cut to strips from same silver plated object, these will be hooked up to battery positive light bulb, a battery charger is hooked up to charge battery, now in the anode wire from battery plus there is a 12 volt automobile tail lamp the other wire from this light goes to the anode silver plated copper strip to be deplated (or dissolved), this breaks down the anode to powders in solution, basically copper and silver powders (or brass if silver plated brass anodes), I have been using used acid peroxide and some fresh acid and H2O2 to get most of the copper from these powders, making silver chloride, this silver chloride can be converted with NaOH and light corn syrup back to silver and melted, (used to inquart gold), (run back through cell) or so on, it is not pure silver but getting closer, and when most people sell the silver plated copper as just copper, I get the silver.
I have done some expierimenting with the copper sulfate electrolyte, sometimes I get a mix that will deplate the silver, and not dissolve much brass or copper, problem is I am not sure of the exact mix yet, but it contains mostly copper sulfate, a tiny bit of nitric and the HCL wash from a previous batch of silver chloride, basically a very dilute tiny bit of aqua regia in my copper sulfate, this while deplating the silver plate some comes off as the copper under the silver plate is attacked, and some of the silver turns to a white silver chloride powder, which after deplating for around an hour I will brush off into the jar cell. if you try this study about the gases formed from electrolytic solutions, even these if a feller built a cell to collect them could prove useful, or dangerous if a feller did not do his homework.
I have also tried using a dilute HNO3 electrolyte, but I seem to like the copper sulfate better.
I also melt the contact points into bars and use them as anode to get them broke down to powders.powders are easier for acids to disolve.
have read in an old book that a stong sulfuric acid with a little nitric acid and heated will deplate silver plate, and they were using it to remove the bad plating to replate articles, I am not sure of all the details, but am sure if a feller wanted he could find out more about it, GSP would Know about the electrolytes and methods much better than me.
Distilling nitric from fertilizer and new battery acid in this same batch I dissolve pin's copper with gold plating, the copper makes a copper sulfate, left behind with undissolved gold flakes, water is added to this warm copper sulfate solution diluting the water soluble copper sulfate, gold flakes are seperated, and the copper sulfate is saved for later use.
Now the silver coated copper items bought from second hand store, cut to fit jar most just in strip's , but one is cut in circle to fit jar bottom it has a long tang, think of a circle with one long rectangle still attached, this tang is bent up for the cathode (Battery minus), the anodes are cut to strips from same silver plated object, these will be hooked up to battery positive light bulb, a battery charger is hooked up to charge battery, now in the anode wire from battery plus there is a 12 volt automobile tail lamp the other wire from this light goes to the anode silver plated copper strip to be deplated (or dissolved), this breaks down the anode to powders in solution, basically copper and silver powders (or brass if silver plated brass anodes), I have been using used acid peroxide and some fresh acid and H2O2 to get most of the copper from these powders, making silver chloride, this silver chloride can be converted with NaOH and light corn syrup back to silver and melted, (used to inquart gold), (run back through cell) or so on, it is not pure silver but getting closer, and when most people sell the silver plated copper as just copper, I get the silver.
I have done some expierimenting with the copper sulfate electrolyte, sometimes I get a mix that will deplate the silver, and not dissolve much brass or copper, problem is I am not sure of the exact mix yet, but it contains mostly copper sulfate, a tiny bit of nitric and the HCL wash from a previous batch of silver chloride, basically a very dilute tiny bit of aqua regia in my copper sulfate, this while deplating the silver plate some comes off as the copper under the silver plate is attacked, and some of the silver turns to a white silver chloride powder, which after deplating for around an hour I will brush off into the jar cell. if you try this study about the gases formed from electrolytic solutions, even these if a feller built a cell to collect them could prove useful, or dangerous if a feller did not do his homework.
I have also tried using a dilute HNO3 electrolyte, but I seem to like the copper sulfate better.
I also melt the contact points into bars and use them as anode to get them broke down to powders.powders are easier for acids to disolve.
have read in an old book that a stong sulfuric acid with a little nitric acid and heated will deplate silver plate, and they were using it to remove the bad plating to replate articles, I am not sure of all the details, but am sure if a feller wanted he could find out more about it, GSP would Know about the electrolytes and methods much better than me.
A
Anonymous
Guest
You can also regenerate the ferruous chloride from copper replacement to ferric chloride and use it to leach copper, be careful not to add air though as ferric chloride with air is a old gold leach.
Jim
Jim
Thanks Jim, I knew ferrous chloride was used to etch copper in circuit boards, but did not know about the air making it dissolve gold that easily, seems like the iron would displace the gold, easier than a copper would,I could understand a strong oxidizer, making it easier to attack gold,a good hot boil should remove any air, that is one way we pretreat our boiler water to remove oxygen, in a deareator to preheat water, the hot water cannot hold as much air, and oxygen attacks the iron in the boiler's.
Barren Realms 007
In Remembrance
butcher said:
Butcher I saw a post here this weekend of someone doing the same thing but they were leaving the pieces whole and then selling the deplated items as copper items.
A
Anonymous
Guest
butcher said:
The ferric chloride is a strong lewis acid, and I believe it has an extra chlorine that it would just love to let go on its way.
Jim
Barren, I read that also, he did not state an electrolyte makeup or any details, and I believe he said a friend of his was stripping the silver and polishing copper article and selling it. it would be nice to know details on the electrolyte and cell details.
what I have been doing works but it is work dealing with copper chloride (I), and I have been trying not to use nitric, as I can get silver back later and did not want to spend much $$ on it, but I am not having to pay for labor, and my time is not counted as expense.
Jim thanks for getting me to do some homework on the ferric chloride, I have used it long ago to etch circuit traces, but did not know chemistry of it, I have not got to look into its use a a gold leach yet, but I will, here is something interesting about it with ethanol and ammonia we can get ammonium chloride, an alternative use for that moonshine? :lol:
what I have been doing works but it is work dealing with copper chloride (I), and I have been trying not to use nitric, as I can get silver back later and did not want to spend much $$ on it, but I am not having to pay for labor, and my time is not counted as expense.
Jim thanks for getting me to do some homework on the ferric chloride, I have used it long ago to etch circuit traces, but did not know chemistry of it, I have not got to look into its use a a gold leach yet, but I will, here is something interesting about it with ethanol and ammonia we can get ammonium chloride, an alternative use for that moonshine? :lol:
Barren Realms 007
In Remembrance
butcher said:
We should probably find that post again and get a link to it here in this thread and see if we can get the original poster to translate details on what process he is using to deplate the silver to copper. And I have no idea what thread that was in now.
That sounds like a post that I did in another area of the forum a few days ago. If I my memory is serving me correctly, it seems like I was told that he was using dilute sulphuric acid with silver nitrate salt added. I will try to contact the guy in person and eliminate the grapevine of confusion and get him to tell me for sure the details of his set up.
