Is all lost?

[gimmegold]

I have been attempting to get gold from phones and such without success...I have been going at it half cocked, finally settled myself in to read Hoke's book and now I finally get it...I think.

I had processed fingers, without removing base metals in HCl+NaNO3(Aqua regia if I am not wrong)...which I now see is VERY lame of me. I have some bluish green liquid with nitric killed off that does test positive for gold with stannous chloride, however the Na2S2O5 will not precipitate gold from the solution.

My big question, I wasn't doing a large batch, probably just fingers from 4 PCI boards, should I work to get the gold still or should I scrap the lot, call it a lesson and start over?

Secondary, for separating the base metals, I was thinking of using sodium nitrate mixed with sulphuric acid (Car guy, sulphuric acid lives at the shop for car batteries). Is this a good way to start or should I start experimenting with the HCl/2(HO) and a bubbler? I have spare fishtank airpumps I could use if this process is more effective.

Thanks for your time reading this, I appreciate your help! I screwed up big time trying to rush to create gold before fully understanding the process, was humbled in the process and now look to the masters for guidance!

 

[its-all-a-lie]

Dont throw anything away, save everything and continue reading. Read Hoke until you fully understand everything and study the forum. Use the search bar in the top right corner of your screen and you will find answers to ANY and ALL questions you might have. When you are done reading, read some more, there is alot to learn here and it is not easy, but there are many here who will help if you do your homework. Goodluck in your learning, you are in a goldmine of knowledge and everything you need to know is here.

 

[gimmegold]

I have been reading and searching, I have been searching and reading. I simply asked opinions of the knowledgable members here about which process they preferred for base metal removal...you wrote a lot of words that could have been better spent assisting me, not reitterating what I already mentioned, that I didn't know what I was doing well enough to be doing it.

Reading is all good and well, but practice makes perfect. That's why college chemistry classes spend time in the lab. Humans need to experience the event to fully comprehend how it truly works. Which explains why we need to burn our hands on the stove before we believe Dad its hot.

If this is the kind of help I can expect from members here, I wont be spending much time on this site I guess. I spent almost 3 weeks reading and searching before posting my first question, only to be told to read and search more...gee, thanks.

 

[jimdoc]

I have been reading and searching, I have been searching and reading. I simply asked opinions of the knowledgable members here about which process they preferred for base metal removal...you wrote a lot of words that could have been better spent assisting me, not reitterating what I already mentioned, that I didn't know what I was doing well enough to be doing it.

Reading is all good and well, but practice makes perfect. That's why college chemistry classes spend time in the lab. Humans need to experience the event to fully comprehend how it truly works. Which explains why we need to burn our hands on the stove before we believe Dad its hot.

If this is the kind of help I can expect from members here, I wont be spending much time on this site I guess. I spent almost 3 weeks reading and searching before posting my first question, only to be told to read and search more...gee, thanks.

Well then, maybe you should find another hobby. If you can't take the time to learn all the safety concerns before you attempt any of this stuff, maybe you shouldn't be doing it. If you choose to go somewhere else to learn, you will be the one one losing out.

Some members have videos if you have something against reading.

Jim

 

[bswartzwelder]

First of all, this seems like a really small batch with the possibility of a lot of base metals mixed in. You should depopulate the boards. Many different methods for doing that, all listed on the forum. You need to use the search function. It is entirely possible that there will not be enough gold from a batch this small to even see it if it did drop. I would guess it is in the order of milligrams if not micrograms. If the stannous test says there is gold in there, then there MIGHT be some gold in there. There have been posts on the forum where people have had positive tests for gold and discovered it was the SMB which had caused a false positive. Again, the search engine will be your friend.

Once the boards are depopulated, then you can get rid of most base metals using Acid peroxide (AP).

You mentioned HCL/2(HO). Don't know what this is. If you were referring to AP, then it is HCl and H2O2. Your reference to 2(HO) just doesn't make any sense.

Don't throw anything away just yet. Although there is almost NO gold in there it might be recoverable. Read Hoke and read the forum. once you have finished, start to try some of the experiments as you read Hoke the second time around. It is extremely important for your own safety as well as the safety of anyone around you (family, friends, neighbors, coworkers, and pets). The chemicals you will be using can be very dangerous and once you have been killed from exposure to some of the fumes, you won't have the luxury of going back and trying to do it right a second time. Equally important, buy safety equipment. It's not a question of if you will have an accident or unexpected reaction, it's a question of when. We have all made mistakes. Some more serious than others. If I haven't mentioned it before, sit down and read Hoke. For the most part, she's right on target with her teachings.

 

[tek4g63]

OK I'll try and help. But first I have to say that I did not like your response to another members post. I'm sure that he was just trying to help and I saw nothing in his post that warranted an ugly response. Unlike the other " dirty " forums out there, we pride ourselves in keeping this forum a friendly place. If you don't like what someone has posted, then wait for the next person to post. Because when you come back in the way that you did it may keep the other members from wanting to help you.

OK. On to your questions.
If you want more help with the solution that you have now we need to know more. Was there any solder present on the fingers when they went into solution? The blue color you mentioned makes me think that there was. If so it's likely the blue color is due to colloidal gold in solution from tin in the solder. Maybe you could post some pictures.

Your stannous test, what color was it? Purple, black, or brown? Please post picture. If doing the test on a q-tip or filter paper, to see the color better hold the qtip out paper over some warm HCL after doing the test. The vapors will bring the color out better. If purple to purple black then your correct it is gold. If brown to brown black then it's probably due to using too much SMB to drop the gold.

Like stated above, there will be very little gold there. When you do get it to precipitate, the powder will be slow to settle and hard to see.

Because you are new I would suggest that you start with fingers in AP with a bubbler. It's a little slow, but easy enough to manage.

Good luck, please try and play nice from now on.

Thad

 

[bswartzwelder]

tek4g63, I guess he's really not going to like my answer. Sorry about that. He should know that there are many people on this forum who have spent many months (if not years) studying the forum and Hoke before they actually try to recover and/or refine gold. I have been here several years and have not refined any gold yet, but would like to sometime in the next couple of months. I made a mistake with the Shor system and lost a lot of PMs. I don't want to repeat that fiasco. When I feel comfortable, (and the weather is decent), I'll give it a shot. I would like to save up any processed gold until I have enough to make a decent sized bar or ingot. Till then, I'll continue reading. I can honestly say that not a week has gone by since I joined the forum that I haven't learned something. THANKS goes to all the experienced members who have been so free with their knowledge. Not only that, but responding to the hundreds of questions put up here has had to have taken many hours they could have spent with loved ones.

 

[nickvc]

Gimmegold this is a unique place where you have access to the best minds in the world when it comes to refining and recovery of precious metals, it's also unique in that no one, no one is paid or has to reply to anyone's questions but most get replies. We are very much a self help forum where the rest of the members expect you to do your part and read and learn, we have all had to so, so why should you or anyone else be different. Every question you have or will have if you stick around here has been answered in full and in many cases many times, you just have to research to find those threads, top right if your screen is the search button.
My advice is to put a large piece of copper in your solution and put all your chemicals away, somewhere safe and start reading if your serious about refining. The best place to start is the welcome to the forum thread and the guided tour, there are links to various necessary things you NEED to know, safety is one of the most important. This isn't like model making or photography the chemicals and mixes of metals and chemicals can hurt or kill you or your family, we don't wnt that, so get serious and start to read.
Welcome to the forum.

 

[gimmegold]

My apologies to anyone I offended, it was late and I was frustrated and while this in not a valid excuse for acting like a spoiled brat, I think I owe an explanation.

I had written 2(HO) accidentally, instead of H2O2...again late.

I may be new to the forum, but I am not new to chemistry & the risks associated with playing with acid. I thoroughly enjoyed my classes in college. I am 38 years old, not 18 looking for a get rich quick scheme or anything of the sort!

I will start with HCl + H2O2 and see where it takes me. Does that process work more efficiently than using NaNO3 + H2SO4 at removing the base metals I am not after?

 

[butcher]

gimmegold,
You have started doing everything Bass-Ackwards wrong, how can you get anywhere like that?
You know nothing about airplanes and you have climbed into the cockpit of a jet and are trying to fly, think about it.

This is not simple, you have it in your mind it is, it takes time to learn, especially in the beginning, there are many details that you will need to understand, simple details that can make everything go wrong.

We try to get people started the best way we Know how, many like you overlook what we tell them, having it it their head it is simple, and they try things without knowing what they are doing or learning the details, that just leads to failure and frustration.

Listen to what I tell you now, and at least think about it.

Put up all of your chemicals, study, begin with Hokes book, forget about getting gold for now but continue to collect scrap, after reading Hokes book, go back and do the getting acquainted experiments taught in the book, at the same time study the forum, read through the safety section, dealing with waste, the welcome to new members and the general reaction list, follow the guide to the forum.

Collect memory fingers, begin learning to make gold foils, using the Copper II Chloride leach (acid peroxide), get good at this, just keep at it until you have a jar full of gold foils, once you have enough and have a good understanding of how to recover the foils from memory fingers, the use the HCl/NaClO (bleach) method to dissolve the foils, use what you have learned like testing with stannous chloride Etc. and precipitate the gold, refine it again, doing the washing procedure Harold teaches in getting your gold pure (help needed section), and melt your first button, then go back and study Hokes book and the forum again, continue your study in safety.

Then start on another fairly easy material to work with like karat gold study it before you try.

You have jumped in before you are ready, you need to learn first before doing, then learn and do, begin with Hokes experiments to get an understanding, after you study the basic principles, study a simple method well, and begin working with less troublesome materials, study and practice with hands on experience what your learning, start from the beginning and work your way up.

The material you are working on now is just laded with troubles, you have not learned the troubles, or how to deal with them, you have not had enough hours of class time to fly a small airplane yet, much less know what to do in the jet aircraft.
Stop get out of the jet, start back with the class time, then the simulator, work your way up to flying then practice what you learn in a small airplane easy to fly, then later you will be able to fly the jet.

If you do not listen to this advice you could just crash and burn that jet you are in now.
If you listen you will learn to fly.

 

[bswartzwelder]

gimmegold

You are certainly not the first to be in a hurry to get gold. I'm almost 63 and did the same things. I finally found the forum and it was at that time I found out the mess I had made made. No thanks to Shor International. I also lost quite a bit of precious metals in that process. Please take all criticism appropriately. No one is here to hurt you. We don't want you, or anyone to make mistakes. I hate to think of the troubles the government agencies could impose on us for what we are doing as a hobby.

Butcher is one of the leaders here. There are many. Some have college experience, some do not. They all have real world experience which is priceless. When a newb joins our family, if they do not convey it to us, we do not know their experience level. As a result, we have to treat all newcomers as though they have no background in chemistry. When I saw you post where you mentioned 2(HO), I assumed you had almost no chemistry background because this is a mistake not made by someone with a lot of experience. I have some chemistry in my background but not much. I also have 2 degrees from Penn State. One is in electrical and electronic technology and the other in nuclear engineering technology. Yet, when I started to get interested in recovery and refining, they were practically useless. We encourage everyone, but we don't take them by the hand and walk them through processes one step at a time. It's best you take the steps yourself. and if you stumble or have a specific question dealing with a procedure, then we can help. Remember to give as much background information about any problems you're experiencing and if possible, post photos. Good luck and be safe.

 

[oldgeek]

Butcher, This is your best response yet to the same old question seen here time, and time again!

gimmiegold, A treasure map has been laid before you, follow it and you WILL find your own pot of gold

 

[its-all-a-lie]

Butcher, This is your best response yet to the same old question seen here time, and time again!

gimmiegold, A treasure map has been laid before you, follow it and you WILL find your own pot of gold

This forum is the pot of gold, how much gold you get out of it is up to you!

 

[Palladium]

Butcher, This is your best response yet to the same old question seen here time, and time again!

gimmiegold, A treasure map has been laid before you, follow it and you WILL find your own pot of gold

This forum is the pot of gold, how much gold you get out of it is up to you!

Good one !


A degree in chemical engineering don't make you a gold refiner anymore that being a car designer makes you a mechanic. He can design it, but turning the wrench is a different story. Hands on experience is the key more than education in some circumstances.

 

[gimmegold]

And that's exactly what I am trying to do, get hands on experience. I have been reading, both Hoke's book (yeah all of it) and here on this forum. I read many-a-post where the first response was "READ HOKE'S BOOK!" and in an effort to avoid this response, I did just that, I read the book and I searched. I felt I was at a point where I was ready for a little "lab time" and I failed, I made mistakes, just like every amateur. I am not too proud to admit that, in fact I did admit that. If I felt I had found the answers in my reading & searching, I wouldn't have posted. I searched, but nothing seemed to be an exact fit for my situation and my query, which method of base metal removal was most effective, both in cost and metal recovery, and whether my failure was a salvageable mess or a lesson in humility.

I appreciate the knowledge and experience here, that's why I came to you fine fellows for assistance. I was handed what every forum on the internet hands it's "newbs", "SEARCH SEARCH SEARCH! I am just going to assume you are too lazy to find answers yourself instead of in serious need of guidance!" Time after time, I see people posting, even stating in their post "I am still just learning, I don't even own chemicals yet, I want to make sure I understand" and instead of answers & guidance they get told "READ READ READ! SEARCH SEARCH SEARCH!" The title of this forum is "Refiners helping one another", which honestly you do, but instantly rattling off the stock answer "search" assumes that we haven't and sometimes either the exact situation hasn't been covered, or if it has, not in words that my vocabulary contains, so searching is entirely worthless! I used to own a forum for specialty engine transplants, and I ended up selling it off because of the "gangs" that formed and how they treated every new member as though they needed to be hazed with the search bar before being part of the crew. It wasn't why I started the forum and I couldn't stand it.

Those of you who actually attempted to help me, I appreciate it, more than I can express. Those who tried to explain I am not knowledgeable enough yet to pull this off, WELL DUH! That's why I failed, was humbled and asked for help!!!

And most of all, anyone who I offended with this post, or any before this,, I apologize, not the intent. I am not a mean spirited person and by no means am I lazy. I just want to explain that I had searched, I understand I had failed, I am not a dumb, lazy newb who just saw a video on youtube & got all excited like I was gonna get rich, and I just couldn't find anywhere that someone definitely said "pursue AP process over nitric acid because it's way easier and more cost effective" or vice versa, so I posted. Believe me, lesson learned. I am putting away the chemicals & hitting the books again. I am reading more and I also will be quite afraid to post any questions without searching with a thesaurus by my side from here on out.

 

[butcher]

Hey man, you have got it all wrong.
Do you think I do not make mistakes?
Do you think I have not done the same mistake your doing?
I was just lucky I crash landed that jet.
Yea I have had a few flying lessons in the small plane after I spent years of study and struggling through mistakes.
And I have put some time in getting more comfortable about flying, but too I also have to watch my limits, and not try stunts I am not ready for.

I also realized I did not understand as much as I thought I did, and I still am studying to understand, and learning, I still do things wrong at times, tend to jump before looking at times, and yes I can make mistakes like anyone else.
I do not consider myself a failure for doing that, but I do try and see where I am wrong and would learn better by following a different path.

Just because you are new to this I did not give you any different advice than I give myself or others.

I still read Hokes, I still search for answers, I still study safety, I still climb out of the cockpit and go back to the book, the forum, and the simulator for lessons, knowing I need to get more work done studying before I can fly that jet, hopefully when I work my way up to it, I will have studied the part about putting on a parachute, and not skipped over that in my hast to get to the gold.

I could have just read about your struggle and frustration, and not try to help or give you any advice, let you fail and struggle not having a clue which way to go, or I could try and be your friend and yell HEY stupid you are going it all wrong and are going the wrong way, the same as I tell myself when I find my stupid self going the wrong way, I do not think you are stupid, heck even though I am much older, you may very well be much smarter than I am. But right now you’re going the wrong way, and I thought you would like to know that so you could find the right path.

we do not Haze or harass, although we are often accused of doing that by those who really have no clue of the complexity of the science they are trying to learn, they think we should just be able to give them a couple of instructions and they will just go out and recover and refine gold tomorrow, well friend that is not the way it works, it involves work and a lot of it, it involves study and a lot of it, it involves understanding when you are going the wrong way, and you have jumped ahead of yourself, and need to go back and study the basics all over again. This is true of any field of work or science, you have to understand the basics, and constantly have to be able to go back and re-learn the basics or what you may have not learned well enough of the basic principles, and constantly keep learning your skill.

so open Hokes book, enough of this chitter chatter we are not getting anywhere running our jaw muscles chewing the cud, get out the books out and study, search and more study, we want to see you melt that gold, (we as refiners also learn another very important lesson called patience), so we here on the forum can wait for a while to see the button, so you can get some of that study under your belt, so when you do melt the gold it will shine, so you also need to learn patience to make your gold as pure as you can.

Give up the fact you are new to the forum you have been welcomed in, you are one of us, get a little tougher skin, these are your friends here and every one of them has tried to help, nobody has picked on you, but they have liked you enough to say HEY STOP and tried to point you in a different direction, they would have not have done that if they did not care if you stepped off of the cliff or not.

No all is not lost, you have just been a little lost, but hopefully this will help you find your way back to the right trail.
and just expect us to say your going the wrong way when we see you off the trail,

 

[nickvc]

Gimmegold I have read your responses and feel you have what it takes to suceed at this hobby or business, it won't be easy I'm afraid and my friend Butcher is correct we all mess up but the skill in this activity is to know how to correct that mess, we try to point every new member in the right direction with a kick to the derrierre when needed for their own good not ours, this really is one huge subject and I doubt anyone knows it all and we all learn constantly if we really have an interest in refining, sometimes from the most unexpected places and people.
We dont want people to fail we want them to suceed but I'm afraid for most it takes time and study to get even a decent grasp of all the technical and scientific knowledge required so that they understand and know exactly what to expect from the processes they are using or propose to use and even then things can and frequently do change and we are back to square one reading why the process failed or created a mess that's beyond our experience or knowledge.
You can blunder on in this situation hoping you find a cure without a decent knowledge of the reasons or possible reasons but the chances of finding that cure is very slim and hope and then interest dies with the frustration of not been able to proceed, some messes can take days or weeks to correct even with that knowledge so I hope your now seeing our reasons to keep spouting read Hoke, search, study and then do it all again, it's not that we know it all but that it's such a huge subject you or any new member has to have a good basic understanding of refining before our help can be of any real use or that makes sense.
Keep your chin up and don't give in, you can do this, but I doubt it's going to be an overnight success, I look forward to seeing your first post in the gallery.

 

[gimmegold]

I am confident I will succeed and I will not allow a little razzing to deter me. That's not how I roll! I get the concept of "Give a man a fish", but I was asking if the work required to recapture my gold from the mess I made was worth it, not how to do it...and asking for guidance on which method to pursue my study, in the opinion of the members for base metal removal.

Here is what I know so far, HCl has the potential to absorb gold, but not as a solid, only a solution. The nitric acid or bleach has the ability to oxidize, or release the single Au atom from it's partner (release gold into solution), so the HCl can swarm it and attach 4 Cl atoms. the Nitric Acid is not capable of "holding" the gold atoms, so the freed atoms will simple reattach themselves to each other, then the gold mass and the process will go on for eternity.

I understand the not just gold will be oxidized in the process so you will have a solution full of every metal under the sun if not properly isolated from the goal metal...then you have the mess I am in. What I do not understand yet is how to then re-isolate the gold from the mess. would I start my precipitating the metals, redisolving in AP or nitric, leaving the gold? Do not answer this, I will find my answers by reading & searching.

I understand that Stannous Chloride reacts with the other metals in solution to create the colors we see on the end of our q-tip by reducing the AuCl4 into colloidal gold supported on the tin chloride, which creates the color. The same is true of the other elements tested with it.

I honestly did NOT go into this willy nilly, I researched quite a bit before even joining this forum 3 weeks ago. I just failed to heed my knowledge before I did my first experiments. I now know quite a few wasys NOT to succeed and have ruled them out, success is close at hand! I am not hurt by the responses given to me, I am simply shocked that I received the same "stock answer for forums" here that are given on every forum, SEARCH.

I have faith that in time, I will be able to succeed and pass this knowledge on to others, I truly believe that with my thirst for knowledge and dedication to results, I will have that first "button" before March expires, and I will do it by searching and reading and FAILING (A LOT!), not by asking "how do I do this".

Thanks again guys, I appreciate your intent, however maybe you misunderstood my queries I guess. Perhaps I can ask it again in a different way now.

Is the mess I made worth fixing, even if it's just a learning experience to save a larger batch from contamination? (I answered that, so I will)

Should I research using the HCl/H2O2 process for base metal removal or use HNO3 in terms of material cost & removal effectiveness?

Thanks again for your help, now and in the future! Kick my rear into shape. My daddy was in the military for 24 years, I can take what you fellas dish out!

 

[nickvc]

Most messes can be fixed it depends whether they are worth it. I'll assume you dissolved all the metals that you now have in the mix and you say it tests positive with stannous, that been the case simply cement the solution with copper to recover any values and save any powders for later treatment.
Chooosing which acids or processes to use isn't that easy for several reasons, what base metals are present also what values, much e scrap contains silver and palladium, availability and cost of the various reagents, volume of material to be processed, space and time constraints, the actual value against cost of recovery, the list goes on.
This might not sound too helpful but members take different approaches to suit their circumstances and based on their experience, the simplest method for fingers seems to be AP to strip base metals, it takes time but is cheap and effective, other items such as chips incineration first to release the values for seperation and better digestion in the acids.
You will find your own way to work on your materials but the basic procedures are laid out here on the forum and with full disclosure, you just have to decide which to use to suit your needs and abilities. As you progress in your refining I'm sure you will see that there is no simple answer to most questions but several and in some cases many.
Good luck and I wish you well and hope your next experiment goes to plan and you achieve success.

 

[kkmonte]

Hi Gimme, I would say its not really worth it for only 4 PCI fingers, The quantity of gold will be so small, you probably won't even see it. My first "test" batch I did was right around 1/4 lb of fingers (i had cut every finger off of every card I had in my house, (probably about 25 memory sticks and 20 various cards). After processing using the Acid/Peroxide method, I ended up with right around .4 grams of gold. Still very small amount, but I know when I started I had moved the materials around so much and in so many buckets, I probably left gold all over the place. My Second batch got a little better, even though I think my material wasn't the best. I processed 1 lb of fingers I bought on ebay and I ended up with just under 2 grams of gold.

Again like you said, practice does make perfect. It's up to you if you want to mess around using AR, I decided I would hold off on playing with nitric until I had more experience under my belt. If you want to see the entire process of processing fingers using AP, order LaserSteve's DVD, i think its like $25 and well worth it.

Ken