kind of Borax

[j2000]

Hi, i have a flux, chapman flux...
I have strange fenomenal (i think)...because usually if i use borax and try dissolve in the water, borax will dissolve (need very2 long time) in the hot water...BUT after cold borax almost to be gel...we can feel it...feel like slippy or greasy...

But since i use chapman borax...when water back to normal temp..borax back like sugar powder...some floating in the water and some sink in the bottom...easy to feel it...it's hard, taste salty...
If i take it and stirring in the cold water, borax easily dissolve to the water almost 100%...in warm water that borax really dissolve...
*see in the picture.


So i need to know, what is kind if borax?

I lil confused...because in some configuration, i use chapman borax and sometime i add unhydrous borax and sometime flourspar...
So that's why i confused...this is caused of unhydrous or flourspar...

Regards

Joel

 

[pgms4me]

Chapman flux is a mixture of several different powders. if you put it in water,the powders separate out. some of the powders will float(probably the borax compuond), and the dark stuff on the bottom in your picture looks to be the manganese compound in the flux. i dont believe that will dissolve in water.
I could be wrong but i believe Chapman flux is made only to be melted in a cupel and not to be dissolved in water.

 

[j2000]

I mean that white crystal...not all chapman dissolve in the water.
If i take that white crystal...and add water...and stir rid..this crystal gone or dissolve very fast.
I taste the white crystal..taste lil salty...

That's why i wanna to know what is the name that crystal/borax...specific borax.
I think i like this borax coz really easy dissolve in the water.


Thanks

Joel

 

[jimdoc]

I mean that white crystal...not all chapman dissolve in the water.
If i take that white crystal...and add water...and stir rid..this crystal gone or dissolve very fast.
I taste the white crystal..taste lil salty...

That's why i wanna to know what is the name that crystal/borax...specific borax.
I think i like this borax coz really easy dissolve in the water.


Thanks

Joel

This really isn't the hobby to be tasting stuff.

Jim

 

[bmgold2]

I mean that white crystal...not all chapman dissolve in the water.
If i take that white crystal...and add water...and stir rid..this crystal gone or dissolve very fast.
I taste the white crystal..taste lil salty...

That's why i wanna to know what is the name that crystal/borax...specific borax.
I think i like this borax coz really easy dissolve in the water.


Thanks

Joel

WOW! Don't be tasting stuff.

Here's some information I dug up for you.

Chapman Recipe Gold & Silver Smelting / Refining Flux. Contains 40% Borax, 20% each: Soda Ash, Manganese Dioxide, Silica. Can be used with or without litharge

40% Borax - Sodium borate - Formula: Na₂B₄O₇·10H₂O
20% Soda Ash - Sodium carbonate (also known as washing soda, soda ash and soda crystals) - Formula: Na₂CO₃
20% Manganese Dioxide - Formula: MnO₂
20% Silica - Silicon dioxide - Formula: SiO₂

The Borax could be found in the laundry section of a supermarket as 20 Mule Team Borax but I don't know if that is available in Indonesia.

In another post http://goldrefiningforum.com/~goldrefi/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=48&t=13046#p131259, Geraldo writes:

If you assume that 20 mule team is the decahydrate form, you can dehydrate it completely by heating to around 140-150 Celsius for perhaps an hour. I don't know how hot your hot plate gets, but most ovens will do this (150 celsius = approx 300 F).

An old pamphlet I have on "practical chemistry" suggests that it should be 500 F for 3 hours, but I don't see the chemical need for this, as the hydration bonds with tetraborate should start decomposing at between 75-120 Celsius.

Best Regards, Gerald

I can't find where this next bit of information came from but I saved it so I'll quote it without credit to the original person. Sorry!

If you need small amounts of PURE borax, and can't find it, you can easily purify the commercial/suspect grade into a purer one.
Sodium borate is easily soluble in hot water. Filter this solution while hot to remove solid impurities and add cautiously/slowly a slight excess hydrochloric acid in that solution, cool it below 0°C. It would precipitate much of the boric acid, since it has much lower solubility in cold water (about 2.5g per 100mL water - 0°C).
Na2B4O7·10H2O + 2 HCl ----> 4 H3BO3 + 2 NaCl + 5 H2O
Filter boric acid, dry it and re-dissolve completely on hot tap or distilled water, re-filter if there is any debris or undissolved material. Gentle boil and go adding baking soda (NaHCO3) slowly until there is no more fizzing.
Boric acid is a very weak acid, and sodium bicarbonate a weak base, but hot water drives the reaction by removing carbon dioxide.. Actually sodium bicarbonate is not stable in hot water because it loose its CO2 giving more alkaline sodium carbonate that reacts more easily with boric acid, giving off more CO2:
2NaHCO3(aq) ---> Na2CO3 + H2O + CO2
4 H3BO3 + Na2CO3 + 4H2O ----> Na2B4O7*10H2O + CO2
-------------------------------------------------------------------
2NaHCO3 + 4 H3BO3 + 3H2O -----> Na2B4O7*10H2O + 2CO2
You can evaporate some of this solution and cool it to get borax crystals, then dry it or give it a recrystallization to get an even purer borax.
You can see the 1° process (borax to boric acid) here
(p. 208):
http://library.sciencemadness.org/libra ... ed1937.pdf
This DIY purification is only recommended if you cant buy the pure product or that is very expensive.
If plan to do, remember to always wear protective clothes and goggles and read MSDS (material safety data sheets) of every substance to understand the risks associated with these chemicals.

The Soda Ash could be purchased in the supermarket as washing soda or at a swimming pool supply company sold to raise pH levels of the water. EDIT: I forgot to mention, soda ash (sodium carbonate) can also be made from common baking soda (sodium bicarbonate) just by heating it up in an oven or on the stove. http://www.youtube.com/watch?v=HFKP3VvCU_0

The Manganese Dioxide could be found at pottery supply places as a colorant. It is also used in dry cell batteries and might be able to be extracted and washed with water to remove the water soluble Ammonium chloride, Zinc chloride, or Potassium hydroxide that it could contain.

For the Silica you could probably use silica (quartz) sand, diatomaceous earth, or probably even crushed glass.

The Litharge (hopefully your flux didn't include this since you tasted it) is Lead oxide (PbO). This was used in pottery but is probably hard to find from that source. Chemical supply houses should still have it. If all else fails, lead shot could probably be used instead although it wouldn't work as well. It is used as a collector in assays and then would have to be cupelled to get you precious metals back so your flux probably didn't include this chemical. It shouldn't need to be said but this one is real toxic.

PLEASE read up on safety and QUIT TASTING CHEMICALS.

 

[goldsilverpro]

I mean that white crystal...not all chapman dissolve in the water.
If i take that white crystal...and add water...and stir rid..this crystal gone or dissolve very fast.
I taste the white crystal..taste lil salty...

That's why i wanna to know what is the name that crystal/borax...specific borax.
I think i like this borax coz really easy dissolve in the water.


Thanks

Joel

Types of Borax:

1-- Anhydrous Borax. Sodium Tetraborate. Na₂B₄O₇. White, free-flowing crystals. Anhydrous means no water, of course.

2-- Borax Glass, which is a glassy material made by melting anhydrous borax and then, most likely, cooling and grinding. Same as anhydrous above except its final form. Same water solubility as anhydrous but, since there is less surface area on the borax glass, it would probably take longer to dissolve.

3-- Sodium Tetraborate Pentahydrate. Na₂B₄O₇.5H₂O. 69% sodium tetraborate, 31% water.

4-- Sodium Tetraborate Decahydrate. Na₂B₄O₇.10H₂O. 52.7% sodium tetraborate, 47.3% water. This chemical is called just plain "Borax." In the US, it is used to wash clothes (20 Mule Team Borax) and to kill certain bugs, cockroaches, I think.

Due to being non-foaming, numbers 1 & 2 are the best for use in a flux, but any of the 4 will work. Numbers 3 & 4 contain a lot of water and, when heated, they expel the water. This creates a lot of foam which can climb out the crucible. For this reason, you might add it in increments. Once it starts foaming, it doesn't take long to die down. After the water cooks off, the end result is anhydrous borax, in any case.

From an MSDS for the decahydrate:

Borax is a white, odorless, powder substance that is not flammable, combustible, or explosive and has low acute oral and dermal toxicity.

Small amounts (e.g., a teaspoon) swallowed accidentally are not likely to cause effects; swallowing amounts larger than that may cause gastrointestinal symptoms

I don't know why you need to know water solubilities, but here's a chart of numbers 1 & 4 at various temperatures, in Centigrade.

 

[j2000]

I mean that white crystal...not all chapman dissolve in the water.
If i take that white crystal...and add water...and stir rid..this crystal gone or dissolve very fast.
I taste the white crystal..taste lil salty...

That's why i wanna to know what is the name that crystal/borax...specific borax.
I think i like this borax coz really easy dissolve in the water.


Thanks

Joel

WOW! Don't be tasting stuff.

Here's some information I dug up for you.

Chapman Recipe Gold & Silver Smelting / Refining Flux. Contains 40% Borax, 20% each: Soda Ash, Manganese Dioxide, Silica. Can be used with or without litharge

40% Borax - Sodium borate - Formula: Na₂B₄O₇·10H₂O
20% Soda Ash - Sodium carbonate (also known as washing soda, soda ash and soda crystals) - Formula: Na₂CO₃
20% Manganese Dioxide - Formula: MnO₂
20% Silica - Silicon dioxide - Formula: SiO₂

Best Regards, Gerald

PLEASE read up on safety and QUIT TASTING CHEMICALS.[/quote]

Thanks very2 much for lot information Gerald,...
DId u know the Main Function of:
20% Soda Ash - Sodium carbonate (also known as washing soda, soda ash and soda crystals) - Formula: Na2CO3
20% Manganese Dioxide - Formula: MnO2
20% Silica - Silicon dioxide - Formula: SiO2

Thanks

Joel

 

[necromancer]

I taste the white crystal..taste lil salty...

Joel

:!: wow, this is going a bit to far :!:

 

[butcher]

some of those white salts may also taste sweet, but they are poisonous like lead salts, tasting would not be wise at all, there are much better ways to find out what a salt is, with out dying to find out.