Learning newbie in E-scrap

[Cheffrey17]

Hello everyone! This is my first time posting in a forum EVER! Most of the time with other hobbies of mine I can usually just find the answer I need in someone else’s question from years back, therefore I usually never ever need to post or ask questions. HOWEVER, this is the one hobby I decided to try in which I researched, watched, read, listened to as much info as I could before I decided to attempt a small batch and still managed to mess it up! Shocking I know, I semi-knew this would happen and I would mess it up in my first time.

So first off let me say I did start reading Hokes book when I saw it recommended several times on other posts, there is a great amount of info in there if you’re working with larger amounts of material. Not much info on e-scrap though.

Not going to lie I had an extensive thread written out from here and then my page refreshed… I’m not re writing it all again so I’m going to re-cap.

Bathed materials in HCL for days with bubbler
I Had other materials I trimmed down as much as possible that I thought didn’t need an HCL bath.
I added both materials to about 250ml of HCL and then added excess nitric(yes I know dumb, had a story about it and not writing again) about 30-40 ml
After that the liquid was very dark, like dark green.
I filtered out (probably not enough or well enough) the solution and added urea to it since that was what I had.
Once the urea stopped reacting I added SMB and brownish-red foam kept appearing.
I kept adding SMB because I didn’t know about the 1 gram of SMB to 1 gram of gold.
I eventually got to an excess amount of SMB piled up at the bottom.
I decided to heat and added more HCL split the solution in half.
The piled up SMB dissaperead from the one I’m heating.
I went out and got sulfamic acid and added to one of the solutions and heated.
That’s where I decided to stop and ask for help!

I would’ve asked for help sooner IF I knew WHERE I messed up, but that’s the name of the game right? You don’t know you messed up till 3 steps later!

This is where I am now, I’ve got a very dark green liquid, I’ve tried stannous testing but the liquid is so dark you can’t tell. I know the gold is in there though as it’s completely dissolved from the material.

I’m very sorry if I have offended any of your protocols, but I would very much appreciate y’all’s assistance on my endeavor! Thanks again! Also feel free to ask me any questions if I failed to explain very well.

Also I’m not sure how to post pictures yet

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hello everyone! This is my first time posting in a forum EVER! Most of the time with other hobbies of mine I can usually just find the answer I need in someone else’s question from years back, therefore I usually never ever need to post or ask questions. HOWEVER, this is the one hobby I decided to try in which I researched, watched, read, listened to as much info as I could before I decided to attempt a small batch and still managed to mess it up! Shocking I know, I semi-knew this would happen and I would mess it up in my first time.

So first off let me say I did start reading Hokes book when I saw it recommended several times on other posts, there is a great amount of info in there if you’re working with larger amounts of material. Not much info on e-scrap though.

Not going to lie I had an extensive thread written out from here and then my page refreshed… I’m not re writing it all again so I’m going to re-cap.

Bathed materials in HCL for days with bubbler
I Had other materials I trimmed down as much as possible that I thought didn’t need an HCL bath.
I added both materials to about 250ml of HCL and then added excess nitric(yes I know dumb, had a story about it and not writing again) about 30-40 ml
After that the liquid was very dark, like dark green.
I filtered out (probably not enough or well enough) the solution and added urea to it since that was what I had.
Once the urea stopped reacting I added SMB and brownish-red foam kept appearing.
I kept adding SMB because I didn’t know about the 1 gram of SMB to 1 gram of gold.
I eventually got to an excess amount of SMB piled up at the bottom.
I decided to heat and added more HCL split the solution in half.
The piled up SMB dissaperead from the one I’m heating.
I went out and got sulfamic acid and added to one of the solutions and heated.
That’s where I decided to stop and ask for help!

I would’ve asked for help sooner IF I knew WHERE I messed up, but that’s the name of the game right? You don’t know you messed up till 3 steps later!

This is where I am now, I’ve got a very dark green liquid, I’ve tried stannous testing but the liquid is so dark you can’t tell. I know the gold is in there though as it’s completely dissolved from the material.

I’m very sorry if I have offended any of your protocols, but I would very much appreciate y’all’s assistance on my endeavor! Thanks again! Also feel free to ask me any questions if I failed to explain very well.

Also I’m not sure how to post pictures yet

Welcome
We are firm believers of the principle of learning folks to fish in stead of giving them a fish, if you get my drift.
So continue your studies.
So you get to a point where you know what to expect when you do something and can adjust if the reaction is different.

To me it seems like you soaked your material/PCBs in HCl and just moved it over to another beaker and made AR?

The reason we have our fingers/PCBs in HCl and bubbling air,
is to dissolve the copper traces under the Gold so the foils loosens and can be separated for later refining.

NEVER put whole PCBs and fingers in AR.

When ever you dissolve Gold or PMs you need to dissolve all base metals present.
This is to avoid that the Gold cements out on less precious metals.

When you have your separated foils ready for refining, add HCl and then Nitric by the drops until all is dissolved.
With Foils it is often preferred to Use HCl/Bleach or HCl/ Peroxide in stead, since these don't need deNOxing.

Sulfamic acid needs to be used very hot and with almost empty (1/3 or so) beaker since it can foam up violently.

As per your current situation I would have collected all liquids in one vessel and then cemented out all on Copper.
Then you probably need to run to run your material again to see if you can dissolve all again.

I am assuming that you are testing with Stannous both before and after cementing.
Stannous testing are our eyes, without it we are blind and have no idea what is in our liquids.

So here is for your studies:

Read the safety section of the forum: Safety
Then read about "Dealing with waste" in the forum: Dealing with Waste

Suggested reading: The Library

Forum rules : https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/board-policy-this-should-be-read-by-everyone.4646/

 

[Cheffrey17]

Thanks for your reply!

So far as the HCL bath I had a bunch of ribbon cable connectors, little components, or even small sections of phone boards that had gold on the but also left over tin/lead from solder etc. I read on here on another post somewhere that using HCL to get rid of all the tin, lead, zinc, and copper was viable.

So the dirty parts went in the bath, however I’m thinking now that maybe the other parts should have gone in an HCL bath as well. Not sure!

But yes I did use AR with all sorts of materials in there, all containing gold, but other materials as well nonetheless.

The solution is very black and very hard to tell with a stannous test, in fact the solution has always been dark so I’ve never gotten an accurate standouts however I do know the gold is in there!

I’m reducing it now on medium heat, slowly combing both solutions together to a more manageable size. Is this a good course of action to reduce down to a sludge and then reintroduce HCL? Or do you prefer cementing it out on copper for failed attempts?? If you even have any Failed attempts by now!

On a side not yes I am trying to learn as much as possible because in chemistry most things happen very fast, so having an understanding of what’s ACTUALLY happening really helps. It also helps with correcting any mishaps. Unfortunately I’m not there yet and it’s why I’m in this predicament.

 

[Bobby1MGRN]

Hi Cheffrey, welcome.
To test with stannous you can try a small amount of your liquid in a test tube or other clear vessel. Add a fair quantity of distilled water to dilute it so you can nearly see through it (I'd suggest a 3:1 ratio to begin, 1ml of your pregnant solution to 3ml distilled water) then add a drop or two of your stannous chloride. Stannous is a very sensitive test and even trace amounts of gold in the solution should show a positive if present.

 

[Yggdrasil]

Thanks for your reply!

So far as the HCL bath I had a bunch of ribbon cable connectors, little components, or even small sections of phone boards that had gold on the but also left over tin/lead from solder etc. I read on here on another post somewhere that using HCL to get rid of all the tin, lead, zinc, and copper was viable.

So the dirty parts went in the bath, however I’m thinking now that maybe the other parts should have gone in an HCL bath as well. Not sure!

But yes I did use AR with all sorts of materials in there, all containing gold, but other materials as well nonetheless.

The solution is very black and very hard to tell with a stannous test, in fact the solution has always been dark so I’ve never gotten an accurate standouts however I do know the gold is in there!

I’m reducing it now on medium heat, slowly combing both solutions together to a more manageable size. Is this a good course of action to reduce down to a sludge and then reintroduce HCL? Or do you prefer cementing it out on copper for failed attempts?? If you even have any Failed attempts by now!

On a side not yes I am trying to learn as much as possible because in chemistry most things happen very fast, so having an understanding of what’s ACTUALLY happening really helps. It also helps with correcting any mishaps. Unfortunately I’m not there yet and it’s why I’m in this predicament.

The mess you have now is best fixed with taking out all solids, filter it well and Cement it on Copper.
Do not expect much.
Then put the solids and the rest of the pieces in HCl and air for a prolonged time until no more metal is left.
Depending on how much material it was you can just keep it in AR until no more reaction and then some more.
Then flush/clean the material well into the same container and cement it again.
You will be left with a little bit of powder that will easily dissolve in HCl and a few drops of Bleach, Cold preferably.
Then drop it with SMB.

 

[Cheffrey17]

Awesome help you two! Thanks again, I will try both methods of Stannous testing and cementing and let y’all know how it goes!

Thanks again!!

 

[Cheffrey17]

So after reducing it through the night and filtering it this morning it looks like I’ve got some green salty pieces at the bottoms, I did get a very positive standouts test it was quite dark black compared to the greenish liquid so I am happy to finally see a positive stannous!

I’m not quite sure that I need to keep the salty material and put it back into hcl and air like you suggested? Or were you talking about other kinds of solids like in the filter or from cementing?

Also another thing when people say “flush and clean” do you mean with acid or water?? I heard adding water can create salts like this.

 

[Yggdrasil]

So after reducing it through the night and filtering it this morning it looks like I’ve got some green salty pieces at the bottoms, I did get a very positive standouts test it was quite dark black compared to the greenish liquid so I am happy to finally see a positive stannous!

I’m not quite sure that I need to keep the salty material and put it back into hcl and air like you suggested? Or were you talking about other kinds of solids like in the filter or from cementing?

Also another thing when people say “flush and clean” do you mean with acid or water?? I heard adding water can create salts like this.

There may be some Gold in the liquid, but you have not informed us how much material you put in there.
But as per your description I'd guess 100g or so, this means you have less than 0.5 g of gold in there, probably way less.
Can you explain what you mean with "salty".

Water will not create salts, it may however force salts that are not soluble in water to drop out.
The pieces of material or PCBs can be processed later, pick them out and put in a container with a lid.
Do the same thing with the filters and its content.
Then finally you can put the assumed pregnant liquid in a airtight container too, label it well.

Start to study until you understand why this went sideways.
You have the links I sent you to get you started.
So when you feel you have the hang of it, present a plan and we can advice if it is sound or not and get it adjusted.

 

[Martijn]

So after reducing it through the night and filtering it this morning it looks like I’ve got some green salty pieces at the bottoms, I did get a very positive standouts test it was quite dark black compared to the greenish liquid so I am happy to finally see a positive stannous!

I’m not quite sure that I need to keep the salty material and put it back into hcl and air like you suggested? Or were you talking about other kinds of solids like in the filter or from cementing?

Also another thing when people say “flush and clean” do you mean with acid or water?? I heard adding water can create salts like this.

Your stannous test needs to be diluted with water until you can see a color. Brown is copper, purple is gold.

One very important thing: is there any basemetal left on the material?
If so, there was probably no gold in solution.
It will have cemented out. Possibly inside pcb copper traces.
Did you filter the solution before cementing?

 

[Cheffrey17]

Thank you both for your replies, I agree with Yggdrasil, right now after reduction and filtering I’ve added in some copper nails and a copper bonding wire. I will stop from here and figure out what needs to be done from there, I’m racking up too many different containers with different things!! I’ve consolidated a little but yes I’m going to hold from here.

I’m assuming right now I should just treat the solution I have now as a “stock pot” and basically restart the process (not right now of course but in the future) of bringing out the gold and silver.

I put in about 150-200 grams of pretty dense gold material, I painstakingly went through every single gold containing component, gold fingers, gold pins, etc. I didn’t throw whole boards in I researched what components had what materials, what were worth picking and what weren’t. I ordered about 30 phones to do this with, i also had 10 grams of gold pins I had bought separately I put in there. I did not put any IC chips in or whole boards, I did add some gold fingers though. Not to mention the large box of broken circuit boards I have from the pool industry that I work in. The whole bag was golden in hue with all of it being gold plated or containing visible gold so I was hoping for at least a gram or two.

I’m not saying you’re wrong though! It is my first time so I’m probably way more hopeful than I should be lol.

The Stannous tester I received has a blackish mark representing gold, another odd thing is the yellowish powder that was filtered out after reduction and before cementing tested slightly positive for platinum I think? I’m new to stannous testing so I’m not 100 percent but it did slightly change to an orangish color

The salty material is in a kind of orb shape, some a few millimeters wide some smaller, pretty clear except for the greenish liquid around them. Not quite sure what it is, i figured out how to attach photos!

Here’s what the salt stuff looks like and the other picture is what got filtered out.

Thanks again!

 

[Cheffrey17]

Also another interesting thing I found was that the salt formed cubes on the magnetic spinner but it formed orbs away from the spinner, I don’t think it’s relevant to anything but I found it kind of interesting. I figured if anything the spinner would have rounded edges from “erosion”, if anyone has thoughts on that’d I’d be interested to know or if it’s too off topic I digress and move on!

 

[Cheffrey17]

Also one more thing, the link to the rules you sent aren’t working?

 

[FrugalRefiner]

This one should work Forum rules.

Dave

 

[Cheffrey17]

This one should work Forum rules.

Dave

Awesome thank you!

 

[Yggdrasil]

Also one more thing, the link to the rules you sent aren’t working?

Sorry about that, an old error snuck in again

 

[Martijn]

Thank you both for your replies, I agree with Yggdrasil, right now after reduction and filtering I’ve added in some copper nails and a copper bonding wire. I will stop from here and figure out what needs to be done from there, I’m racking up too many different containers with different things!! I’ve consolidated a little but yes I’m going to hold from here.

I’m assuming right now I should just treat the solution I have now as a “stock pot” and basically restart the process (not right now of course but in the future) of bringing out the gold and silver.

I put in about 150-200 grams of pretty dense gold material, I painstakingly went through every single gold containing component, gold fingers, gold pins, etc. I didn’t throw whole boards in I researched what components had what materials, what were worth picking and what weren’t. I ordered about 30 phones to do this with, i also had 10 grams of gold pins I had bought separately I put in there. I did not put any IC chips in or whole boards, I did add some gold fingers though. Not to mention the large box of broken circuit boards I have from the pool industry that I work in. The whole bag was golden in hue with all of it being gold plated or containing visible gold so I was hoping for at least a gram or two.

I’m not saying you’re wrong though! It is my first time so I’m probably way more hopeful than I should be lol.

The Stannous tester I received has a blackish mark representing gold, another odd thing is the yellowish powder that was filtered out after reduction and before cementing tested slightly positive for platinum I think? I’m new to stannous testing so I’m not 100 percent but it did slightly change to an orangish color

The salty material is in a kind of orb shape, some a few millimeters wide some smaller, pretty clear except for the greenish liquid around them. Not quite sure what it is, i figured out how to attach photos!

Here’s what the salt stuff looks like and the other picture is what got filtered out.

Thanks again!

I can't make anything from that first picture.
Is this a stannous test?
You have to apply one drop of clear solution to a piece of filter paper and add one drop of stannous chloride, next to it, but just touching so the acid migrates through the solution drop. This way you see a color. If its too dark, add some drops distilled water to it until you see brown, purple, or maybe even red or green/yellow.
Brown is copper.
The second picture looks like a filter with some metastannic acid or silver chloride mixed with traces of auric chloride. But it could be anything from all the things you mixed.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I can't make anything from that first picture.
Is this a stannous test?
You have to apply one drop of clear solution to a piece of filter paper and add one drop of stannous chloride, next to it, but just touching so the acid migrates through the solution drop. This way you see a color. If its too dark, add some drops distilled water to it until you see brown, purple, or maybe even red or green/yellow.
Brown is copper.
The second picture looks like a filter with some metastannic acid or silver chloride mixed with traces of auric chloride. But it could be anything from all the things you mixed.

I think it is some kind of crystallization of Copper as the liquid cools down or evaporates and solubility can't hold it in the liquid anymore.
Second picture is not possible to decode, other than bare feet and no gloves.
Better start wearing gloves mate.

 

[Cheffrey17]

Yes I know I ran back outside yesterday to snap a quick pic once I figured out how to attach the photos, I was sitting in bed reading the forums when I saw the “attach files” button finally staring at me I’m normally suited up when actively doing things.

The first pic is the salt like pieces that formed after reduction over night on medium heat, the second picture is some sort of material that got filtered out after the reduction. I had rinsed the filter with some HCL which might have caused it to slightly change color. I’m not too worried about that stuff though.

I had started the cementation last night, I have a bunch of solids at the bottom and a stannous test of the liquid came out negative. The liquid is still very dark but I did what you suggested and took a drop on a piece of filter paper, diluted it with water and did the stannous. There’s no gold in the liquid anymore I think

 

[Cheffrey17]

So after filtering and rinsing from the cementation I put all the solids back into hcl/water with a bubbler, the small particulates didn’t dissolve right away so I believe that’s good news?? You weren’t kidding by the way it was a lot less than I had imagined lol. Well, that is if I did the cementing right or not!

 

[nickton]

Like many beginners it appears you have over complicated and over thought a simple process. It's okay we all did it.
Any electroplated pins should not go into the bubbler HCl or "AP" solution, and everything else should, after all but gold bearing areas have been trimmed off.
Then leave in the bubbler for a long time. ( I left mine going for a few weeks or more...but that's just me). No appreciable amount of gold will dissolve so don't worry about that. Make sure all gold comes off substrates before stopping. I often have to scrape it off using a cheap screwdriver or narrow chisel. For the easier stuff a tooth brush works too.
Next filter AP solution to extract gold foils. Rinse foils with Hcl and water.
Test AP with Stannous chloride to see if there is gold in solution.

Then add clean HCl and small amounts of nitric to dissolve gold in resulting AR.
Finally sulfamic will eliminate excess nitric before you drop gold using smb. It is better to use than urea.
If you have sulfuric acid, use a bit for your next necessary refining of the gold in order to rid it of lead.

You don't need to do any cementing or spinning of the material.

Also: Don't even think about Platinum group metals. There is no need to. They will end up in your stock pot. If you absolutely must learn about them get Laser Steve's videos.