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SilverNitrate

SilverNitrate

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 2, 2008
Messages
179
Location
midWest USA
If you like crystal gold and likes your gold precip to look more like metallic gold rather than brown fluff try this, BUT Before trying this ... its my prediction and though I haven't tried it yet - yet I believe you can get beautiful gold foil precipitate doing this method.

First do everything at room temperatures.
Dissolve your purified gold in AR then mix with an ample amount of sodium bicarbonate (Arm & Hammer baking soda) to neutralize. Pour the mix in a glass pitcher then add in an equal weight to gold amount (Formaldehyde) HCHO and let this mix stand for a day or two.
You should have tiny flakes of gold that mimmic broken gold leaf.

When I get around to doing this I'll post pics. If it don't work I simply post that it will not work.
 
goldsilverpro said:
Sounds OK to me. What is your point? Why would anyone want to do this?
Click to expand...
It's just me probably, but I like to find new methods and make new creations. Also having worked hard on refining a metal and pouring it into a bar isn't my style. But when PCTS or SHTF I can turn into an ingot
 
Formaldehyde is old hat. It's what is produced when I drop 9999 gold with Versonal 120 (Dow Chemical). It is the very best chemical to use to convert silver chloride to silver metal (in combination with sodium hydroxide). Unfortunately, it's a carcinogen.
 
formaldehyde or embalming fluid works well as a catalyst on dropping metal from oxides.
The theory of making this gold glitter is: HCHO is a gas that is normally sold as 37% in methanol. When the formaldehyde is mixed with the gold bicarbonate it slowly converts it to a gold hydroxide, the HCHO releases from the solution forming millions of air pockets. The bubbles of HCHO and CO2 acts as a wall for the gold metal to plate out on. If undisturbed, sizeable bubbles will make for large areas to plate out on, thus having large flakes of 'gold glitter'

Uses: make your own Goldschlager!
dry out and rub on things you want to decorate gold.
add to paint, nailpolish, etc.

formaldehyde is toxic too, can cause dizzyness, saturates the blood, may be cancer causing. Well so does tobacco smoke. just a caution here.
 
Too much technical crap and not enough practical truth. If formaldehyde does all these nasty things, why would anyone want to use it?
 
there is an alternative to HCHO, that is H3CCHO or acetlyaldehyde. its little safer since the body produces it, however its harder to find. because its the chemical that gives one a hangover from a few drinks.
 
I don't buy the chemistry. Gold hydroxide? Not exactly an easy thing to make. Hydroxides and oxides of gold are unstable... I would try what you're suggesting but I have no interest in making gold flakes like this.

As for formalin and formaldehyde stay away from them if you can and especially keep it away from HCl as it will make a serious cancer risk. There are few reasons to use formaldehyde or acetaldehyde (an inebriation hazard and huge fire risk). If you do it, let us know how it goes. Just make sure there is no free HCl in the gold solution you are reducing.


Versonal 120 is probably some sort of specialty formulated aldehyde and the reduction of silver oxide made from silver chloride and base produces a carboxylic acid (most likely a carboxylate salt--excess base is always present). Probably a modified Tollens reaction slapped up and packaged with a brand name. Now that is an old hat. Any old aldehyde will work, even acetals if in base (sugars).

However, GSP says you can use Versonal 120 for dropping gold. Sounds likely...there are definitely some other ingredients in there besides an aldehyde. I wonder if it says what it is on the msds? (I can't find one, but maybe you have one Ralph, seeing as you use the stuff--it's customary to receive an msds with a chem order). Could you tell me what is in it?


To be blunt, aqueous reduction (whether with Versonal or whatever) of Ag2O made from AgCl and Na/KOH is a pointless expenditure of your time and money and is stupid, wasteful, and unnecessary.

I say this because there is a cheaper method that works just as well and kills two birds with one stone--save a step and start melting. I'll post this elsewhere too so people know this.

Starting from pure AgCl, one need only add a slight excess of base. This makes Ag2O and a basic brine which will not revert to AgCl. Rinse your Ag2O til it is pH neutral and chloride free. Take this brown-black light sensitive powder and let it dry out (light decomposes it to silver). Pack the silver oxide in a crucible and heat it. Since some Ag(OH)2- is formed because of the basic conditions, all the wash water should be collected and the minute quantity of silver lost to wash reclaimed with HCl, which drops out the chloride. Silver oxide is unstable to heat and will release oxygen around 300*C. The oxygen is driven off well before any of the silver melts. It is melted and cast as usual.

I have successfully followed that procedure to produce fine silver. I started with a known mass of my silver oxide and obtained the expected amount of silver. If there is enough interest I will make a video of it, or perhaps Steve will find it interesting enough to do himself and share for you all.

A viable alternative to copper cementation as this method guarantees your silver is pure and it doesn't matter what type of dirty solution it came from since the silver chloride employed is already free from other metals.

Lou
 
Lou,

Your method sounds very interesting, I may just give it a go. When I get to it I'll make a video of the process and post it.

Steve
 
MSDS for Versenol 120 = trisodium HEDTA

http://www.sciencelab.com/xMSDS-N_2_Hydroxyethyl_ethylenediaminetriaceticAcid_Trisodium_salt_Hydrate-9924316
 
Ok, I have tried this with silver and not gold yet. And seeing if I could make silver glitter. And this method worked: using a silver nitrate solution with dissolved copper i.e. sterling silver dissolved then dropped out with NaHCO3, allowed to dry then poured HCHO on it and let stand for a few hours. Afterwards there was a dark gray silver glitter. I'm letting dry now, BUT it looks like there have to be an impurity present - copper.
Now I think that with gold you need to add copper to it to say produce it as 22k or 23k so.
 
Lou said:
To be blunt, aqueous reduction (whether with Veronal or whatever) of Ag2O made from AgCl and Na/KOH is a pointless expenditure of your time and money and is stupid, wasteful, and unnecessary.

I say this because there is a cheaper method that works just as well and kills two birds with one stone--save a step and start melting. I'll post this elsewhere too so people know this.

Starting from pure AgCl, one need only add a slight excess of base. This makes Ag2O and a basic brine which will not revert to AgCl. Rinse your Ag2O til it is pH neutral and chloride free. Take this brown-black light sensitive powder and let it dry out (light decomposes it to silver). Pack the silver oxide in a crucible and heat it. Since some Ag(OH)2- is formed because of the basic conditions, all the wash water should be collected and the minute quantity of silver lost to wash reclaimed with HCl, which drops out the chloride. Silver oxide is unstable to heat and will release oxygen around 300*C. The oxygen is driven off well before any of the silver melts. It is melted and cast as usual.

I have successfully followed that procedure to produce fine silver. I started with a known mass of my silver oxide and obtained the expected amount of silver. If there is enough interest I will make a video of it, or perhaps Steve will find it interesting enough to do himself and share for you all.

A viable alternative to copper cementation as this method guarantees your silver is pure and it doesn't matter what type of dirty solution it came from since the silver chloride employed is already free from other metals.

Lou
Click to expand...
Silver is my forte... The quick and dirty method for making silver metal from AgCl is to mix in NaHCO3 with AgCl and heat this mix together to 2000F and voila! silver.
Cementation with copper don't work well with high concentration of silver. and you'll have loads of copper solution. So it may be necessary to drop your silver precip from aqueous solutions with NaCl, NaHCO3, nitrite,hydroxide, phosphate or what ever, then heat to decompose it to get the silver. then what little bit silver left in solution, can be cemented out with copper.
A silver thermite can be achieved too, using mainly sugar. Sugar and AgNO3, Ag2O, AgSO4 and maybe some others will burn with just sugar. though the compounds have to be dry. AgCl and aluminum burned together can yield good silver too, the AlCl3 thats formed is evaporated! I dubbed the Ag-Al method.
 

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