MAKING NITRIC ACID QUESTION

[whoknew62]

Question, I AM NEW TO REFINING SCRAP SILVER AND GOLD. WITHOUT GOING INTO WHAT I NEED TO REFINE, I DO NEED TO MAKE NITRIC ACID DO TO MAKING THE VARIOUS PROCESSES AFFORDABLE.
the question IN GENERAL FORM, IS NITROGEN THE SAME AS NITRATE , (Or will nitrogen added to sulfuric acid/water, make a Nitric acid.) i have seen so many utube videos, read until blind, on the making of Nitric acid. The Main process using Battery acid (Have to my notes, I also have the Muriatic acid), Distilled water, and adding a Nitrate Fertilizer. I was able to locate Ammonium Nitrate in 50Lb bags for $27 bucks, but was advised against using an Ammonium based Fertilizer. Ive searched locally, (I now reside in Oscosh N.C., Purchasing this stuff where I used to line (NYC) would be nearly Impossible.
I went to a large fertilizer supplier, and asked for Sodium Nitrate. After they showed me 18 different small bags of various Rose and other garden fertilizers, (Not by my request) They finally said, yes we have 50Lb bags of Sodium Nitrate. $15 bucks, and tossed it in my van .(I also asked for potassium nitrate.) About the best Sodium Nitrate bag I found was affordable, yet when I got home, The lable reads as follows:.34-0-0,Nitrogen plus Sulfur ,Total (N) 34%. (Ammoniacal Nitrogen 8%, Urea Nitrogen 26%) , Sulfer (S) 10%. Also contains Copolymer .05%.
I supposed I could have shortened this but, what is the difference in Nitrogen, and Nitrate. Will the fertilizer I have work in making Nitric acid? (I prefer to be safe, then sorry.)
As the years go on I think back . 35 years ago I believe I was passing Calculus in 11th grade, but never faired well in Chemistry. (Failed english if you couldnt tell)
Sighed, 55 some odd years old with broken back from Commercial fishing, Looking to use my brain (or what is left of it) for some income in refining gold and silver, both PC scrap and Many Pounds of RGP, GF HGP Etc.
Hope some of that made sense. Thanks for your time.

 

[Geo]

this is a very broad question and has no simple answer. if you want to distill nitric acid, which makes the best acid for use with silver, you will need potassium nitrate or salt peter. if you want to make "one pot method" nitric acid, then sodium nitrate should be used but this is a poor choice for silver refining. ammonium nitrate should be avoided in reactions involving disolution of metals.

 

[whoknew62]

Geo, Thank you for your reply.
yes, I am not very good at getting to the point of a question I may have.
Shorter version, as I have seen (Use sodium Nitrate Use Potassium Nitrate with Hcl and distilled water to make Nitric acid many times. But in the same breath or formula, they say "I use fertilizer, available at any local hardware, etc.)
When I see all the utube verions,and formulars (The method of Capturing the Nitric may vary,) but Many, even most say, "I use fertilizer as my Nitrate."
I would rather not raise flags ,asking my local hardware store for 50Lbs of Potassium Nitrate. But I have yet to read on any fertilizer ingredients label, the word, "Nitrate". I have only seen "Nitrogen".
What is the Difference in Nitrogen, and Nitrate. Or is it the same thing? I am simply looking to keep cost realistic, while keeping safety at the forefront.
Hope that makes a bit more sense. Thank you for your time.

 

[Anonymous]

It's ashame you aren't in florida.I have about 10 gallons of 70% I am looking to sell.But shipping won't be an option.

 

[whoknew62]

Dang, I fished the Indian River and Lived in Coco Beech/ Titusville for a few years, but that was over 10 years ago. Was not looking to refine gold and silver back then. Would have been close for the pick up though.
I just saw on another thread hat a guy paid Over $200 bucks for 8 liters? :shock: Yikes

 

[butcher]

Nitrogen is a gas mainly what we breathe in with each breath we take; this Air contains several gases approximately composed of:
78% nitrogen
21% Oxygen
1%argon
And minute amounts of: carbon dioxide, neon, helium, methane, krypton, hydrogen, nitrous oxide, carbon monoxide, xenon, ozone, nitrogen dioxide, iodine, and ammonia.

Nitrogen (N) is a gas and although it is a component of other gases like nitrogen monoxide (NO), nitrogen dioxide (NO2), and the several other nitrogen oxide gases that we call NOx gas, nitrogen gas itself does not bond that easily with oxygen as an elemental gas,
But in a high voltage arc we can make nitrogen and oxygen bond to form NO and NO2 gas with more air or oxygen and if we bubbled NO2 into water or dilute hydrogen peroxide (H2O2) we can form nitric acid (HNO3), this is done industrially on a large scale, but it is impractical to do in a lab, it will produce a very small amount of nitric acid, but the equipment, time and trouble for such small amount of acid produced is just not worth it.

In our atmosphere lightning and the nitrogen oxygen can form nitric acid (acid rain),

Burning fuels in our vehicles, our boilers and other industrial combustion the nitrogen in the air and the oxygen can also form NOx gases when these come into contact with the moisture they can also form nitric acid (acid rain) and pollute the environment, here we use exhaust gas re-circulation catalytic converters, tuning our combustions of fuels, and scrubbers to try and eliminate this pollutant.

Nitric acid (HNO3) and a metal like sodium (Na), potassium (K), copper (Cu), silver (Ag), Etcetera, make a salt of that acid and base metal, called nitrates (NO3), sodium nitrate (NaNO3), potassium nitrate (KNO3), or copper nitrate (CuNO3) Etcetera.

The salts like nitrates can also be formed (like from urea when an animal urinates, first breaks down to ammonia, or from manure, blood, decomposing vegetation, and so on can) and the grounds soils bacteria can take these and produce nitrate salts plants need these for growing, sodium and potassium are very reactive metals so these con combine and form nitrates easily like the potassium nitrates we can make from our compost pile or the sodium nitrate mined from some parts of the world.

Throughout history nitrates have meant survival, first nature provided them for the plants to grow we ate, later man started fighting over this food and invented gun powders, we needed to make nitrates from our urine, compost piles, animal manure, blood, bat cave droppings and so on for fertilizer, and for gun powder or to get the food our enemy had, and of course if you lived in or had access to places in the world where nitrate could be mined then you mined it, if you were in the middle of a world war, could not get it from the soil or could not make it very fast from compost, or as fast as you used it dropping bombs or shooting it in guns and cannons, (decomposition of compost take a lot of time), then you invented other ways to make it like from ammonia and electric arc (Germans WWII).

Well to make a long story longer, sodium nitrate can be ordered online, if you cannot find it locally, also stump remover can contain either sodium metabisulfate (sodium pyrosulfite) or potassium nitrate.
We have posted tons of information on the forum on where to find these, how to make nitric acid, just about anything you would need, you will need to search, and read to learn. Besides you are not ready to use these acids if you have not done your research into them, so I will not put a book on this post about this subject, me and others here on the forum have already written enough to fill a book, you should read it.

HCl and nitrate salt makes aqua regia not nitric acid.
H2SO4 and nitrates makes nitric acids.

 

[qst42know]

Geo, Thank you for your reply.
yes, I am not very good at getting to the point of a question I may have.
Shorter version, as I have seen (Use sodium Nitrate Use Potassium Nitrate with Hcl and distilled water to make Nitric acid many times. But in the same breath or formula, they say "I use fertilizer, available at any local hardware, etc.)
When I see all the utube verions,and formulars (The method of Capturing the Nitric may vary,) but Many, even most say, "I use fertilizer as my Nitrate."
I would rather not raise flags ,asking my local hardware store for 50Lbs of Potassium Nitrate. But I have yet to read on any fertilizer ingredients label, the word, "Nitrate". I have only seen "Nitrogen".
What is the Difference in Nitrogen, and Nitrate. Or is it the same thing? I am simply looking to keep cost realistic, while keeping safety at the forefront.
Hope that makes a bit more sense. Thank you for your time.

Plants can use nitrogen from a variety of sources unfortunately you are looking for a couple of specific types and need to avoid complex blends. If you can't find what you need locally, an online source may be your best bet.

 

[Geo]

Hi-Yield brand called "Nitrate of soda" is sold in 5 pound bags is sodium nitrate. used for flowering plants and lawns, this time of year you could buy it by the truckload and no one would bat an eyelash. ammonium nitrate on the other hand is the explosive preferred by 9 out of 10 terrorist and farmers removing stumps from their fields. i wouldnt by ammonium nitrate from Lowes or anywhere else for refining purposes.

 

[Anonymous]

Dang, I fished the Indian River and Lived in Coco Beech/ Titusville for a few years, but that was over 10 years ago. Was not looking to refine gold and silver back then. Would have been close for the pick up though.
I just saw on another thread hat a guy paid Over $200 bucks for 8 liters? :shock: Yikes

Lol...we are going shrimping at the Titusville pier in a few minutes.And we were at port canaveral last night.
$200 for 8 liters is rediculous.

 

[whoknew62]

To Geo and Qst- Thank you much for the simplified answers. Seems I will be leaning towards your answers in my final purchase. Thanks again.

To Mic- Hope you loaded up a few buckets of shrimp. I worked that exact area many many times for shellfish. You brought back many wonderful memories.

butcher? Maybe you meant well, so again, your reply is appreciated, but your comment
" Besides you are not ready to use these acids if you have not done your research into them, so I will not put a book on this post about this subject, me and others here on the forum have already written enough to fill a book, you should read it."
I believe I mentioned that I have read on this refining subject until blind. I may have used the wrong acid in typing on my 2nd post, but may have got it correct on the 1st post.
Not in this Forum, but I have read , watched videos, Researched on this subject for approx 6 Mths now. (I always need to refer to my notes, as I can be a bit forgetful as the years go on. I did not use my notes last night. ) My piles of PC scrap , but more so Jewelery scrap "as the later has now become my main source of income" are growing high. I need the Nitric acid for Silver recovery. I would like to experiment on Quadruple plate Silver holloware, Just to mention One type of item. I feel that recovery/refining attempt Must be kept affordable.
I can see I need to be very careful in how I word a question.
In keeping with refining, And even being a newbee To This Forum I cant stress enough, I want to be safe. And that is why I asked. At the risk of repeating myself, In todays world I also do not want to raise flags. But I will say in addition to Ammonium Nitrate, Potassium Nitrate also needs to be handled with caution and care. (I know from 1st hand experience from a different line of work.)
All in all I appreciate this forum, and find it wonderful seeing others helping others. Thanks again to all.

 

[qst42know]

Butcher always means well, lighten up, and he's not kidding.

Not in this Forum, but I have read , watched videos, Researched on this subject for approx 6 Mths now.

Forget what you learned elsewhere.

I would like to experiment on Quadruple plate Silver holloware, Just to mention One type of item. I feel that recovery/refining attempt Must be kept affordable.

And if you want to keep it an affordable perhaps even payable hobby forget the Q-plate.

 

[butcher]

whoknew62,

It was not my intention to offend you, what I was trying to get you to see is that you need more study into the use and making of this acid, the dangers of using this acid, the reactions of this acid on the metals we intent to use it on and also the dangers if it comes into contact (accidentally with things we do not intend it to) and also the disposal of the wastes, I have studied it for more than five years, and still am studying it, and I cannot say that I know enough about it and all of the reactions we can get with these metals, all the reactions that can generate the many different toxic and environmentally hazardous fumes, on the intranet you can find a whole bunch of misinformation concerning this acid, as every 12 year old scientist becomes an expert on its making and use, and posts his video's, and documents, some of it can be base in facts and then it may also have a very dangerous portion involved in his information.

Also we get all kinds here asking how to make or use very dangerous chemicals, and processes, not wanting to spend time learning before they do, they will disregard their health and other for a few milligrams of gold, I do not know many of the people I may answer a question for, and usually try to get them to learn more for their own safety and those around them.

What I said was meant to get you to study more of the chemistry and the safety of nitric acid and its gases formed, before just cooking some up dumping it on some metal and thinking you know all about it, there is a lot to this acid, its gases and reactions, not only this acid but as with many of these chemicals we use, we need to understand them as much as possible before we use or store them or dispose of them.

Please overlook how I said it, and take my advice to study nitric more and also the NOx gases and its dangers, I was trying to help not offend.

I apologize if I offended you, I am no doctor, if I were I would be accused of having the worst bedside manners of him or her all, but please take the advice and study this acid before you make or use it.

I am sorry.

 

[whoknew62]

Butcher,
Your reply is greatly appreciated. And no apology is necessary. (I,d rather not waste this forums time with some type of drama, as I believe things should be kept to the point of the topics, and the reasons folks come here.)
I guess I was a bit taken, as I truly have read and researched, Tons of info and data. I also feel Safety should be 1st and foremost, especially in getting involved with this new hobby/supplemental income. I have read so much, and by some folks Very knowledgeable in this field. I take notes, as I do forget things these days.
I am a bit ticked at myself for throwing out and old stove exhaust hood when I replaced it with a new one in my house. (Will locate a used one somewhere,.) I also wont so much as attempt to use any of these acids in my early stages without a respirator. (Maybe a bit overkill, but I understand some of these fumes produced are Very toxic.)
I could never go into detail about how much I have looked into this subject, as that would fill novels. Yes, I understand there are novice vids, but there are also some useful vids. Same goes for what I have read/ researched to date. I try to notate from those I feel are Very qualified in the field, and leave the other readings behind, from some I can only assume are new to this field.
I did pick up a bag of what Geo I believe mentioned. Nitrate of soda. Its only 16%, but I will look into that #. Even having all chemicals ( or most) I believe I now need, right down to a benchtop furnace for down the line a piece. (Have acetylene and Mapp as well.) I will still not venture into making Nitric yet. (I want to keep the silver refining in particular, cost effective. Hence, making Nitric myself, and the question that started this all.)
I am the one who will apologise. Maybe I came across as a know it all? I am anything but, and again, Maybe from my past lively hoods, I will keep safety on the forefront.
Thanks again for your reply. It shows true character.
Best Regards , The New guy to the forum.

 

[butcher]

When making nitric acid, to use on silver, you should distill your nitric.

Sodium nitrate (NaNO3) and sulfuric acid (HNO3) when mixed will form nitric acid (HNO3) and a byproduct of sodium sulfate (Na2SO4), we can try and freeze out most of these sulfate salts from our nitric but it is hard to get rid of all of them, and not very soluble silver sulfates salts can then form if we use home made un-distilled nitric acid.

Lazersteve worked out a formula for nitric acid at about 50%, it works great for what we need (search cold nitric acid recipe) it goes something like this:

100 ml boiling water, (170 g NaNO3) or (200g KNO3), dissolve heated, cool, add slowly so you do not boil over 56ml of 98% H2SO4, stir and heat if needed, let cool and chill in freezer decant salts, store out of light, if using for silver distill this, see full details in Lazersteve’s post for cold nitric acid, (I also believe the general reaction list had this in it.


Like I said earlier you will find a lot of information on nitric acid here on the forum,
I also keep a notebook on nitric acid, if you have any questions I may be able to helpout from those notes (the note book is buried under one of those tall stacks of paper).
I must say though there is no need to make highly concentrated nitric acid in what we do here, so I will not share any information or note’s on making it. (Azeotropic) nitric 68% nitric acid is about as concentrated as we need for Aqua Regia, and for silver or base metals the nitric acid is diluted with 50% water to 50% nitric acid before using (somewhere around 40% HNO3).

 

[Harold_V]

I am a bit ticked at myself for throwing out and old stove exhaust hood when I replaced it with a new one in my house.

Don't be. It is not suited to the work you will do. Trust me on this one.
Keep in mind---you will be working with deadly corrosive gasses and vapors. A steel hood won't last long enough to warrant the installation time, nor will it be effective in capturing all of the discharges you'll create. I encourage you to think *fume hood*. A fully enclosed device with an access door, properly vented.

I thank you for your kind response to butcher. He is amongst the hidden treasures of this forum.

Harold

 

[CountLoco]

I'm making nitric acid by putting a 80 grams mix solution of calcium ammonia nitrate, pottasium nitrate diluted in 50 mls of water, 150 mls of hydrochloric acid and about 25 mls of sulfuric acid in a beaker covered by a beaker big enough to fit over the beaker with the ingredients into a beaker big enough to fit both with 75 mls of water, 40 grams of copper 2 times. I'm trying to make the nitric acid stronger by running the process again...the first batch was clear nitric acid but now the 2nd time the nitric acid is turning green. Does anyone know why this is happening ?

 

[4metals]

What you are making is aqua regia, not nitric.

 

[g_axelsson]

CountLoco, the method you describe is a very awkward way of making nitric acid, basically trying to dissolve the nitric oxides that the aqua regia is emitting from dissolving copper. In the outer beaker the water will absorb some of the nitric oxides and form a weak nitric acid (probably with traces of HCl too).
I think I saw a video made by Nurdrage that demonstrated one version of this method.

What I don't understand is how you run it twice to make it stronger.

Green discoloration could be copper chlorides that passed over between the beakers.

Göran