Melting down??

[Arcani]

newb here

have hobby furnace and crucible, Will gold bond with other metals when melted? can it be seperated by meltin?

i've read the tutorial, could the chemical process outlined be complemented by smelting of some sort

 

[Harold_V]

newb here

have hobby furnace and crucible, Will gold bond with other metals when melted?

Molten gold will bond to almost all metals, and forms alloys with many of them readily. A note of caution: do not melt precious metals in any kind of metallic vessel, not under any circumstance. Molten metals are strong solvents, and will dissolve other metals, even well under their melting points.

can it be seperated by meltin?

Only in rare circumstances, but even then all you do is make it transfer to an element with which it enjoys a more comfortable life. For example, if you had an alloy of iron and gold, you could separate the gold from the iron/gold mix by melting the lot with silver. Silver has a greater affinity for gold than does iron, so the silver would gather the gold. When it was poured in a mold, there would be stratification, with a layer of silver and gold alloyed on the bottom, a layer of iron on top, then a layer of sulfides (assuming there were any in the heat), then a layer of flux. Silver and iron do not alloy, or do so very poorly.

i've read the tutorial, could the chemical process outlined be complemented by smelting of some sort

There are instances where melting of values is necessary. A good example is to recover them from sulfides. By melting in the presence of scrap iron (scrap steel is fine---rebar, angle iron, etc.), the values are liberated from the sulfide compounds. The results are much like what I stated, above. In general, you will not use melting as a refining process---although you would for inquartation. It's pretty much done chemically.

Lou may have some good input on this one.

Harold

 

[Arcani]

thanks for quick info

will only silver work?

considering the 2 oz/ton for boards(maybe less) could thermite be used to melt down all of the mass? ( enviro concerns for sure, smoke is nasty)

note that thermite adds alot of carbon, among other things and gets about 3000 C. no crucible will withstand the heat so have to do it in sand.
would a thermite contaminated mass desolve properly in AR?

if enyone is wondering, Alluminum/iron oxide(rust) at 5/2 to 4/2 by mass
ground or filed fine
only lights at high temp, melts real good, don't look at flash

 

[Harold_V]

will only silver work?

I know of only silver, but that's only because I am not a metallurgist, nor have I had need to explore your question before. There may be other metals that behave in the same manner. The Parks process, I believe, is another, but it does not pertain to separating values from iron. I commented on silver only as an example.

considering the 2 oz/ton for boards(maybe less) could thermite be used to melt down all of the mass? ( enviro concerns for sure, smoke is nasty)

Wrong approach. The yield from Thermite is steel, which I wouldn't consider a collector of values. Don't know that anyone would, not for gold, silver or copper.

would a thermite contaminated mass desolve properly in AR?

Again, wrong approach. AR should not be looked upon to eliminate base metals, which would be the vast majority of elements you'd recover from melted boards. You must address the base metals before thinking of using AR. There are exceptions, but working with copper laden low grade scrap isn't one of them.

Assuming you had fused boards, the normal procedure would be to dissolve the base metals with nitric acid. It's a mess to work with, due in part to the inclusion of tin and lead. I'm not convinced you really want to go there. In my many years of refining, I ignored such materials because of the problems involved with the process.

You would be far better served to market boards to those that handle them by the ton. They are a huge amount of work for little return. Do as Steve and others do---high grade them (fingers) and leave the lower grade materials for others that are properly equipped to handle them. You'll work yourself to death trying to make a buck otherwise, and possibly spend more than you'll recover.

Harold

 

[Arcani]

this forum kicks ***, learning alot. Forums like this have a great potensial
to advance science. Two bike repair men figured out how to fly will the top universitys spent vast sums of money dumping hulks in the ocean.

thats for your input , just thinking in word. Themite prob contaminate
more then it would remove matter, but i mite try it enyway for fun.
It seems that pulling all those pins is'n to economical. I've read posts of people putting the boards in a cell, but have gold sticking to other parts after com'n off pins(as well as copper disolving in)

would rigging the board to oscilate help or speed the cell striping process?
why won't just dipping in AR work if it attacks the gold?

i don't think i'm to interested in playing with the chemicals, not until there's a faster and easyer way to harvest, so thats where i think i will play around for now

ever seen AmericanAntigravity.com?
people are playing with EM feilds and getting some interesting effects
like melting metel

But it seems like karet jewery is prob the only way to make eny money in refining gold

off post topic but on platinum, it has a high melt point, what would happen if the hdd disc's where heated short of platinums melting point?
would the pt be desolved by the metel on which it's plated when it got molten?

 

[Platdigger]

Yes

Molten aluminum is a great collector of plats.

As for dipping boards in AR. By the time most of the gold is disolved, you have a bunch of other metals in solution, and a bunch of gunk from whatever the boards are made of also.
No fun.

Randy

 

[Harold_V]

would rigging the board to oscilate help or speed the cell striping process?

Superimposing an AC current on top of a DC current has been known to be used when parting alloys that have a high percentage of contaminants that would build a layer that became a barrier to the flow of the desired element, but I don't know that you'd gain much in a stripping cell. Problem with stripping is that gold that is buried under solder or otherwise masked, is not recovered. That's one of the reasons the "big boys" melt boards. The most value is recovered by that process.

why won't just dipping in AR work if it attacks the gold?

It works fine if you carry the operation to conclusion, which would be to get ALL of the base metals in solution, along with the values. Two ready problems here would be that the traces of gold that are present would be heavily contaminated when precipitated from solution because of the ratio of values compared to the ratio of base metals. That's not a significant problem in that gold can be re-processed once precipitated, which would improve its quality.

Clearly, you're confusing a recovery process with a refining process. One needs to recover values, then refine them. Only in rare circumstances would that be done with AR. An example might be where you recover values from plastic or ceramic items, which would not be dissolved along with the values.

The biggest problem is that when you dissolve gold in the presence of base metals, it doesn't stay in solution. The moment one of the acids used is near exhaustion, any of the values that are in solution start precipitating on the base metals. That would repeat itself until all of the base metals had been totally dissolved. The gold, which was in thin sheet before being dissolved, is now reduced to a dirty black colored powder. Again, no big deal, but how to recover it without contamination? How do you know that you have, indeed, recovered it? Some would be stuck to base metals that had yet to dissolve.

A reasonable person would conclude that if it's necessary to dissolve all of the base metals to avoid premature precipitation, why not dissolve all of the base metals first? It would make no sense to attack the values, combining them with the elements you're trying to exclude. That's why wise folks use nitric acid. It eliminaaates the majority of base metals before any of the values are dissolved. Maybe you've noticed a common theme here on the board. Guys either strip, or dissolve base metals, then they process the residues for values.

i don't think i'm to interested in playing with the chemicals, not until there's a faster and easyer way to harvest, so thats where i think i will play around for now

Then recovering precious metals isn't for you. Regardless of your approach, you have to use chemicals. You can not recover and purify values without them. If, by chance, you come up with a way, you'll have revolutionized the refining industry.

ever seen AmericanAntigravity.com?
people are playing with EM feilds and getting some interesting effects
like melting metel

That's nothing new. That process is known as induction heating. A microwave oven works on a similar, if not identical, principle. Induction furnaces, while quite primitive, were developed in the early 1900's, using a spark gap to create high frequency. Modern induction furnaces are solid state, and very efficient. As their size increases, so to does frequency. Huge induction furnaces operate at line frequency (60 Hz).

But it seems like karet jewery is prob the only way to make eny money in refining gold

I came to that conclusion long ago, and worked to that end. It worked for me, and worked well.

Money can be made with E scrap, but it must be handled in volume----you can't hand strip boards and make much more than wages. They're simply too labor intensive. Great hobby, though, one that can be pursued with safety, using a little common sense.

off post topic but on platinum, it has a high melt point, what would happen if the hdd disc's where heated short of platinums melting point?
would the pt be desolved by the metel on which it's plated when it got molten?

How do you propose to recover the values? It may work in principle in that you'd get the entire mass in solution, but that wouldn't get you any closer to extracting the values.

You're back to working with chemicals. That's the same problem you'll face if you try melting boards by the Thermite process. No one said it wouldn't work----but all you'll accomplish is to change the nature of the problem. You must use chemicals eventually.

Maybe you should consider a different hobby. :wink:

Harold

 

[Arcani]

How do you propose to recover the values? It may work in principle in that you'd get the entire mass in solution, but that wouldn't get you any closer to extracting the values.

You're back to working with chemicals. That's the same problem you'll face if you try melting boards by the Thermite process. No one said it wouldn't work----but all you'll accomplish is to change the nature of the problem. You must use chemicals eventually.

Maybe you should consider a different hobby.

Harold


i was hoping that the platinum would float on top or could be collected from the molten metel with a rod of some perticular material or maybe even charged
the chems are a endgame to me at this point, when and if i can get an economical way to aquire gold to refine i will look at the chemistry with a greater understanding.There's alot to learn and i'm starting from zero chemistry experience, but i'm reading away and learning alot.

i called a few pawn shops in my area and fond a big difference in cost of scrap jewlery from one place to the next. One place wanted 14$ a gram LOL, but a couple said 6$ per gram for 14 K, and one said 7$ for 14K or 18K?? this seems to good to be true, IF the 14k stuff is 40% thats about half of the spot price. Is this the economical source i'm looking for? or are there traps i'm not seeing?[/quote]

 

[Anonymous]

maybe included stones and stuff that make the pieces yeild less gold.

 

[Arcani]

maybe james, there must be a catch

 

[lazersteve]

That sounds like the prices they might buy scrap gold for, not what you pay them if you want to buy some.

Steve

 

[Arcani]

Posted: Thu Mar 13, 2008 5:27 pm Post subject: Pawn Shop prices

--------------------------------------------------------------------------------

That sounds like the prices they might buy scrap gold for, not what you pay them if you want to buy some.

Steve


no man they said on the phone they would Sell it at that , only a couple places though, most wanted to much(10-14) are they just not reading the paper??

 

[Harold_V]

i was hoping that the platinum would float on top or could be collected from the molten metel with a rod of some perticular material

Where recovering precious metals from molten solutions is concerned, with VERY rare exception, you can forget stratification. You aren't going to enjoy success hoping to skim values from the top----they're generally heavier than the base metals, and if they are inclined to alloy, you can't separate them with gravity.

If you don't know, platinum is one of the heaviest of elements, about 10% heavier than gold. If it was inclined to stratify, you'd find it at the bottom. That's not the case. Most metals, once alloyed, separate only with difficulty.

I'm going to say something that I've said, time and again.

Buy Hoke's book.

If you are as uninformed as you suggest, you need some printed material that can become a ready reference. It's the cheapest and fastest way to gain an understanding. I advise you not get involved with refining blindly. You risk losing money---not only by losing metals, but by being fleeced by unscrupulous sellers. Hoke's book will teach you how to test for metals, what chemicals are required, and pretty much anything else you might need to know to accomplish your mission. You'll stumble about endlessly without some assistance. That's time you could be using to advantage.

The other piece of advise I'd like to offer you is to quit coming up with bizarre notions. The processing of precious metals is a well documented thing----although there are various ways to pursue the matter. What really helps is to learn one or two of them, which helps you understand what to expect. I'm not suggesting you shouldn't be curious and perhaps do some experimenting, but if you don't have a clue, even if you happen to hit on something that works, you may not realize it does. The more you learn about the basics, the better will be your understanding.

I'd like to ask you to trust me in regards to my advice to buy Hoke's book. No one knew less about chemistry than I did when I started refining. Her book answered all my questions, as it will answer yours.

Buy the book!

Harold

 

[Arcani]

thank u so much for all your work on my fishing expedition Harold
you'v got me on the right track

Where recovering precious metals from molten solutions is concerned, with VERY rare exception, you can forget stratification

platinum plate, hdd hard drive disk

you don't know, platinum is one of the heaviest of elements, about 10% heavier than gold.

top left corner of p table right?

The other piece of advise I'd like to offer you is to quit coming up with bizarre notions

don't reply then, or give short reference, u will still get post count. Have u ever seen "Thunder bolts of the gods", u can see it for free at google/video, just search the name. If u don't watch that video, u won't fully understand this responce to that quote. I could explain in a few lines but again, u would not digg what i'm putt'n down, ie this next quote

I'm going to say something that I've said, time and again.

Buy Hoke's book.

as per the rest of your last reply, there are infenent forums on endless scientific and technologicl topics. The internet has it's own culture. If a post is not worth replying to, don't, no one in this new reality has cause to be offended. if they are, they are the minority. like spelling for instance, who cares, info inport'n not'n else. English does seem to be win'n tho (kind'a, lol).

To give u a snapshot of this new reality 2 days ago i knew nothing. Today i have all the chems already and 131 grams of 60% silver(got in mexico for 40$ years ago; could be wrong on %, not much exp. testing) as well as 42 grams of 14 Karat chain i had kick'n around and some old car stereo components that show poz for gold(light purple test result). still need beekers and better understanding of chemistry involved but plan to post a full discription, step by step, of what i plan to do before i do it, and let u guys punch holes in it and/or save my life lol. if i can sucsesfully refine what gold and silver i already have, then and only then will i be prepaired to invest in junk jewlery, which i may have a line on(much more exp. needed in testing)

i thank u for your constructive critisisum and all the time u have spent replying to my questions, and hope u will decline to answer if it is frustrating or anoying to u

sinceirly

Bizzar smacktard *********( AKA Arcani)

[/quote]

 

[peter i]

The internet is like a flea market:
Horrendous amounts of scrap and crap, and a few good finds here and there. This forum has quite a few very nice bits of information and some very competent members who have done it for real, not just “wanna-be”s bragging about what they may have read somewhere else or just believe to be true.
When you ask a question and somebody actually waste time answering it, consider what they said. When you find gold, appreciate it!

Considering spelling: Bad spelling impairs understanding and make your writing very annoying to read.

But it’s great to hear that you have evolved from noob to expert in just two days. (How the rest of us must have wasted our time!)
Please keep us posted, but do yourself the favour to use a spellchecker and let your post rest for a few minutes, then reread them and consider what sense they would make to other people.

The best way to get a good and useful answer is to ask a well considered and well formulated question.

 

[Arcani]

thank u for your response peter. I think i failed to make my point in that last reply, which is my fault. I hear exactly what u and Harold are saying.
I'm sorry i can't explain it in a more coheirent manner, as i am not that smart. i hope i have not offended enyone, and again say that if my post is not worth replying to i won't get pissy if u don't. I will format future responces in a effert to reduce misinterpratation.

respectfully
Landless Peasent

 

[Harold_V]

i thank u for your constructive critisisum and all the time u have spent replying to my questions, and hope u will decline to answer if it is frustrating or anoying to u

Do not misunderstand my comments. What I'm trying to do is prevent you from chasing your tail------and to learn some of the basics, so you understand what you can expect when attempting refining. If you pursue avenues known to fail, the only thing you're going to learn is nothing works.

At the risk of sounding egotistical---------I remember all too well how I'd have given almost anything to have found a source like myself, that was willing to talk, and had years of experience, albeit somewhat limited, in refining. I didn't have the luxury of asking a single person for advice, and those that had the least bit of knowledge were not willing to share what they knew.

I don't think many here understand what a gift they are being presented.

I am willing to talk with almost anyone, but I expect they will listen to what I have to say. If any reader is looking for someone to agree with their notions, some of which may make no sense at all-----I'm not the guy.

Harold

 

[Arcani]

Harold
did u watch the video?

maybe this will help

thank u for your response peter. I think i failed to make my point in that last reply, which is my fault. I hear exactly what u and Harold are saying.
I'm sorry i can't explain it in a more coheirent manner, as i am not that smart. i hope i have not offended enyone, and again say that if my post is not worth replying to i won't get pissy if u don't. I will format future responces in a effert to reduce misinterpratation.

respectfully
Landless Peasent

also; print is dead ,..... sorry :roll:

 

[Harold_V]

Harold
did u watch the video?

Videos, for me, are out off the question. I am on a dialup that connects @ 26.4 kbps. It takes far more time to download anything of substance than I can afford to lose. It's not that I'm not interested-----so I'd welcome further comments if you think they'd be useful.

maybe this will help

thank u for your response peter. I think i failed to make my point in that last reply, which is my fault. I hear exactly what u and Harold are saying.
I'm sorry i can't explain it in a more coheirent manner, as i am not that smart. i hope i have not offended enyone, and again say that if my post is not worth replying to i won't get pissy if u don't. I will format future responces in a effert to reduce misinterpratation.

respectfully
Landless Peasent

also; print is dead ,..... sorry :roll:

You likely know that I had no comments about your command of the English language. I'm not here to teach English-----just refining. If I can help you, or anyone, in that regard, that's my purpose. Meet me half way and things work real well.

Get Hoke's book, and read it well. That will be a monumental step forward for you.

Harold

 

[Arcani]

no high speed in ur area? that sucks, there is so much out there.
Thunderbolts of the Gods is about a new theory of the universe, they make a good argument, atribute most craters on astrel bodys to giant electric discarge(on melting topic). A small test on one aspect of this theory can be done with dark soft drink and a small speaker, cut 2 litre bottle in half, half fill with coke- put speaker up to bottle with low bass track playing-adjust frequency up and down till u find a 'sweat spot'-when u do the waves form into a kind of model of a solar system. a ball of liquid forms in the middle(sun) and smaller balls with satilites begin to orbit, the amount of planets and satilite change with the frequincy, very cool. this seems to disprove the gravity driven orbit theory i learned in school. other interesting aspects of this theory is it's explanation of oil creation(not the dinosoars), the slowing expantion and evenchual contraction of the universe, and the big ban.

I'm geting together a list of links i will post in a new thread, maybe called alternate science or som'n. I am interested in what the strong minds of this forum think and feal there is a good chance what others are working on in other feilds may aid u in your feild. Behold the great Oricle, keeper of all truth and teller of all lies.

I can't thank u anuf Harlod, your constructive critisisem has carried me uphill for 4 days now and the view is getting niece. Found a local refiner for some karat jewlery i had plus 87 grams of 14k i got from a pawn shop for half spot(6$ a gram). He did it all wile i watched for 2 % recovered value, i took the cash and plan to invest it in more cheap jewlery and build a gold investment. Also i have been striping plated gold electronic components with just salt water and H-peroxide, slow but good to learn on. i was thinking i would just filter the gold clumps out and put the dryed filter right in a crucible and melt down(don't care how pure resulting metel is at this point, not rdy for AP). Is this a good idea or should i put flake aside for now? Also, if filtered solution tests poz for gold is there a way to drop it other then SMB? does it need Urea?

Thank again for all your time, i should donate to get u high speed lol :lol:

Sincierly
Huxley's surf