Need info on this material

[Devildog]

Hello all,

I found this while scrapping some boards. Not really good with identifying this type of stuff.

It is ceramic and photos are below... Any gold in this thing?

As always thank you all for anyband all education. I am forever grateful, for you all.

CHEERS!!

 

[anachronism]

There may or may not be gold in these. I know that's really not the answer you're looking for however there are so many different types of them that it's impossible to tell without an XRF gun, or by processing them and hoping for the best.

Some have Gold, some have Silver, some are base metals, and rarely some have PGMS too.

Alternatively if you can get a BOM for a particular part code that may help too however that's a tough ask.

 

[Alondro]

Prolly has some gold bond wires, or gold brazing under the chip.

My experience with these huge PROMs is that they have very little gold for their size. In most, you can cut off nearly an inch from both ends and not lose any of the gold-bearing parts. The legs reach inward quite far, with the bond wires and/or brazing only around the chip right in the center.

Cutting the ends off the PROM is, of course very difficult to do, because the whole thing tends to shatter and the legs all bend and twist with pliers or blades doing the cutting. But a thin bladed circular saw bit on a drill can trim them nicely. That's only viable if you do a small number of them at a time. If you're processing bulk loads of PROM, then it's no longer feasible to trim them.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Alondro, "prolly" is not a word. Please do not use text lingo here. Many members have to use translation software to read the forum, and things like "prolly" are not going to translate well.

Dave

 

[macfixer01]

Hello all,

I found this while scrapping some boards. Not really good with identifying this type of stuff.

It is ceramic and photos are below... Any gold in this thing?

As always thank you all for anyband all education. I am forever grateful, for you all.

CHEERS!!

First thing is that chip isn’t ceramic, it’s plastic. Ceramic chips would not have those round mold marks. Also I can see there is no gap on the sides where the pins exit with a grayish colored glass material filling in-between two separate ceramic layers. It’s black plastic all around those pins with a sharp mold line running along between them. Most people just save all their black plastic chips and assume a good portion will have gold bond wires, even though some won’t. There’s no way to tell if a chip has gold bond wires inside except to break it open and look. If I had several identical chips like that though with same manufacturer, same part number, and same approximate date codes, I would break one open to check and could assume the rest are the same whether good or bad. I usually use a hefty pair of end cutters and split one end lengthwise, which will generally stop somewhere around the center since the die is embedded there. Or you could just break the chip in half near the center. Then I use a loupe or microscope to try to see gold bond wires sticking out of the broken plastic near the silicon die. Or check the inner ends of some of the now-exposed pins and look for evidence of where the bond wires were previously attached. The wires are very tiny so you’ll need a good magnifier and they could either be gold or aluminum, so the color will tell you which they are. Sometimes there may also be gold plating on the metal piece the die is attached to or portions of the lead frame.

The bond wires embedded in the plastic will generally just look like little dots. You’ll usually only see the broken ends of the wires that snapped where the plastic broke. Here’s some recent pictures I have that are from a different type of chip (BGA) but will give you an idea. In the circled area you can also see where the bond wires were previously attached in a row to the internal pads on the fiber piece.

 

[Devildog]

There may or may not be gold in these. I know that's really not the answer you're looking for however there are so many different types of them that it's impossible to tell without an XRF gun, or by processing them and hoping for the best.

Some have Gold, some have Silver, some are base metals, and rarely some have PGMS too.

Alternatively if you can get a BOM for a particular part code that may help too however that's a tough ask.

I'll take any information and education I can get from you all.
Whats the process on processing them? Do you have to break them or how do you process them.
Unfortunately, other then that sticker there's nothing on it. Purely blank.
Again thank you so much
CHEERS!!

 

[Devildog]

Alondro, "prolly" is not a word. Please do not use text lingo here. Many members have to use translation software to read the forum, and things like "prolly" are not going to translate well.

Dave

Dave! Always a pleasure hearing from you Sir

First thing is that chip isn’t ceramic, it’s plastic. Ceramic chips would not have those round mold marks. Also I can see there is no gap on the sides where the pins exit with a grayish colored glass material filling in-between two separate ceramic layers. It’s black plastic all around those pins with a sharp mold line running along between them. Most people just save all their black plastic chips and assume a good portion will have gold bond wires, even though some won’t. There’s no way to tell if a chip has gold bond wires inside except to break it open and look. If I had several identical chips like that though with same manufacturer, same part number, and same approximate date codes, I would break one open to check and could assume the rest are the same whether good or bad. I usually use a hefty pair of end cutters and split one end lengthwise, which will generally stop somewhere around the center since the die is embedded there. Or you could just break the chip in half near the center. Then I use a loupe or microscope to try to see gold bond wires sticking out of the broken plastic near the silicon die. Or check the inner ends of some of the now-exposed pins and look for evidence of where the bond wires were previously attached. The wires are very tiny so you’ll need a good magnifier and they could either be gold or aluminum, so the color will tell you which they are. Sometimes there may also be gold plating on the metal piece the die is attached to or portions of the lead frame.

The bond wires embedded in the plastic will generally just look like little dots. You’ll usually only see the broken ends of the wires that snapped where the plastic broke. Here’s some recent pictures I have that are from a different type of chip (BGA) but will give you an idea. In the circled area you can also see where the bond wires were previously attached in a row to the internal pads on the fiber piece.

This was extremely educational and also, informative.

I am so grateful for you thank you so much.
CHEERS!!

 

[BGDOCK]

I soak the chips in AP w/ a bubbler , after a week I check to see. If the legs are still on them. Burn / pyrolyze them. Until they are white , crush them up well ,
Then separate magnetic parts, classify or screen it .
Gravity seperate with water
The sludge I have leached in HCL and bleach for a couple of weeks then drop w SMB . The powder recovered is then put in AR w/ a couple of squirts of sulfuric acid then filtered I like using iron sulphate to drop the gold at this point .
I’m sure there are other ways as well

 

[macfixer01]

I'll take any information and education I can get from you all.
Whats the process on processing them? Do you have to break them or how do you process them.
Unfortunately, other then that sticker there's nothing on it. Purely blank.
Again thank you so much
CHEERS!!

It’s not blank, it has a part number laser engraved on it. If I zoom in I can see it in the first photo underneath where the label was removed. It looks like some variant of a PIC16C77 (Maybe -04/P?) processor, but I can’t read part of the numbers because it’s obscured by what I assume is adhesive from the label.

 

[kurtak]

Hello all,

I found this while scrapping some boards. Not really good with identifying this type of stuff.

It is ceramic and photos are below... Any gold in this thing?

As always thank you all for anyband all education. I am forever grateful, for you all.

CHEERS!!

Pic number 1, 2 & 4 are epoxy molded chips not ceramic - pic number 3 is a ceramic chip

The epoxy chips will have gold bond wire in them - the ceramic chips do not have gold bond wire but instead have aluminum bond wires --- the only gold found in the ceramic chips will be a VERY thin gold brazing under the silicon die AND only "some" of them have that gold braze under the silicon die

As far as yields go for processing these type chips go --------

1) at best - with the epoxy chips you can expect 0.1 grams gold per pound of chips - that is one tenth of a gram per pound of chip so you need 10 pounds of these chips to get 1 gram gold- AND - that is if you don't lose any of the gold bonding wires during the many steps you need to go through in processing these chips

Odds are that you will lose at least some of the bonding wires during the different steps in processing these chips - so don't count on the one tenth gram per pound

2) with the ceramic chips it depends on if (&/or) how many of them have the gold brazing under the silicon die meaning you could get zero grams gold if none of them have gold braze under the die (of a pound of chips) to at best one tenth gram gold if there is gold braze under ALL the dies in a pound of the chips

Therefore in my opinion I personally would never consider processing the ceramic chips as the cost of time & chems to process them far exceeds the value of the gold recovered

And the ONLY reason I would ever process the epoxy ones is because I would throw in a pound or 2 or 3 of them when processing a MUCH larger batch of higher yielding chip

In other words - when processing 50 - 60 pounds of HIGHER yielding chips I would throw in a pound 2 or 3 of these chips as the one tenths to 3 tenths gold was an addition to the larger batches of HIGHER yielding chips

I would never consider processing these chips on their own as like the ceramics the cost of time & chems far exceeds the value of the recovered gold - in my opinion they are only worth processing if they are processed along with other higher yielding chips

Kurt

 

[Yggdrasil]

Pic number 1, 2 & 4 are epoxy molded chips not ceramic - pic number 3 is a ceramic chip

The epoxy chips will have gold bond wire in them - the ceramic chips do not have gold bond wire but instead have aluminum bond wires --- the only gold found in the ceramic chips will be a VERY thin gold brazing under the silicon die AND only "some" of them have that gold braze under the silicon die

As far as yields go for processing these type chips go --------

1) at best - with the epoxy chips you can expect 0.1 grams gold per pound of chips - that is one tenth of a gram per pound of chip so you need 10 pounds of these chips to get 1 gram gold- AND - that is if you don't lose any of the gold bonding wires during the many steps you need to go through in processing these chips

Odds are that you will lose at least some of the bonding wires during the different steps in processing these chips - so don't count on the one tenth gram per pound

2) with the ceramic chips it depends on if (&/or) how many of them have the gold brazing under the silicon die meaning you could get zero grams gold if none of them have gold braze under the die (of a pound of chips) to at best one tenth gram gold if there is gold braze under ALL the dies in a pound of the chips

Therefore in my opinion I personally would never consider processing the ceramic chips as the cost of time & chems to process them far exceeds the value of the gold recovered

And the ONLY reason I would ever process the epoxy ones is because I would throw in a pound or 2 or 3 of them when processing a MUCH larger batch of higher yielding chip

In other words - when processing 50 - 60 pounds of HIGHER yielding chips I would throw in a pound 2 or 3 of these chips as the one tenths to 3 tenths gold was an addition to the larger batches of HIGHER yielding chips

I would never consider processing these chips on their own as like the ceramics the cost of time & chems far exceeds the value of the recovered gold - in my opinion they are only worth processing if they are processed along with other higher yielding chips

Kurt

Aren't all these from the same chip?

 

[kurtak]

Aren't all these from the same chip?

No - pic number 1 -2 & 4 are clearly "molded" epoxy chips (they all may or not be "the same" chip)

Pic number 3 is clearly a ceramic chip (You can tell by the white glass strip used to bond the top & bottom slabs of ceramic together)

Kurt

 

[Yggdrasil]

No - pic number 1 -2 & 4 are clearly "molded" epoxy chips (they all may or not be "the same" chip)

Pic number 3 is clearly a ceramic chip (You can tell by the white glass strip used to bond the top & bottom slabs of ceramic together)

Kurt

We are looking at the same pictures, right?
No 2 and 3 has the same sticker,
Arzel Ver 3.2.
So I'm confused.

 

[kurtak]

You maybe right - pics can be deceiving

Edit to add - whether epoxy or ceramic they are so low yield that they are not hardly worth processing as the time & chem cost will be greater then the value (of gold) recovered

Kurt

 

[Shark]

Those big chips are gas hogs. It always uses a lot more gas to get them done, and as Kurt said, I have never seen them worth the cost to process. I once ran two pounds of them, I don't recall the amount I recovered but it was so low I quit pulling them since then. They can ship with boards for someone else to process.

 

[Devildog]

I soak the chips in AP w/ a bubbler , after a week I check to see. If the legs are still on them. Burn / pyrolyze them. Until they are white , crush them up well ,
Then separate magnetic parts, classify or screen it .
Gravity seperate with water
The sludge I have leached in HCL and bleach for a couple of weeks then drop w SMB . The powder recovered is then put in AR w/ a couple of squirts of sulfuric acid then filtered I like using iron sulphate to drop the gold at this point .
I’m sure there are other ways as well

Thank you my friend. I am forever grateful as always.

 

[Devildog]

You maybe right - pics can be deceiving

Edit to add - whether epoxy or ceramic they are so low yield that they are not hardly worth processing as the time & chem cost will be greater then the value (of gold) recovered

Kurt

KURT!
Holy cow it's good to hear from you. How are you getting along and how are things your way?
I agree but figured I'd ask first and per usual I appreciate you and your input. Glad I heard from you my friend.
CHEERS!!

 

[Devildog]

Those big chips are gas hogs. It always uses a lot more gas to get them done, and as Kurt said, I have never seen them worth the cost to process. I once ran two pounds of them, I don't recall the amount I recovered but it was so low I quit pulling them since then. They can ship with boards for someone else to process.

Shark,
Good to hear from you my friend. Thank you so much for the input as I have slid them into the box to go to whoever hahaha.

 

[Devildog]

We are looking at the same pictures, right?
No 2 and 3 has the same sticker,
Arzel Ver 3.2.
So I'm confused.

Yes sir you are correct. All the same chip just removed the sticker in one of the pics for a top view.

 

[Devildog]

Pic number 1, 2 & 4 are epoxy molded chips not ceramic - pic number 3 is a ceramic chip

The epoxy chips will have gold bond wire in them - the ceramic chips do not have gold bond wire but instead have aluminum bond wires --- the only gold found in the ceramic chips will be a VERY thin gold brazing under the silicon die AND only "some" of them have that gold braze under the silicon die

As far as yields go for processing these type chips go --------

1) at best - with the epoxy chips you can expect 0.1 grams gold per pound of chips - that is one tenth of a gram per pound of chip so you need 10 pounds of these chips to get 1 gram gold- AND - that is if you don't lose any of the gold bonding wires during the many steps you need to go through in processing these chips

Odds are that you will lose at least some of the bonding wires during the different steps in processing these chips - so don't count on the one tenth gram per pound

2) with the ceramic chips it depends on if (&/or) how many of them have the gold brazing under the silicon die meaning you could get zero grams gold if none of them have gold braze under the die (of a pound of chips) to at best one tenth gram gold if there is gold braze under ALL the dies in a pound of the chips

Therefore in my opinion I personally would never consider processing the ceramic chips as the cost of time & chems to process them far exceeds the value of the gold recovered

And the ONLY reason I would ever process the epoxy ones is because I would throw in a pound or 2 or 3 of them when processing a MUCH larger batch of higher yielding chip

In other words - when processing 50 - 60 pounds of HIGHER yielding chips I would throw in a pound 2 or 3 of these chips as the one tenths to 3 tenths gold was an addition to the larger batches of HIGHER yielding chips

I would never consider processing these chips on their own as like the ceramics the cost of time & chems far exceeds the value of the recovered gold - in my opinion they are only worth processing if they are processed along with other higher yielding chips

Kurt

Seems like more of a headache and loss to fool with then anything haha. I slid them in the box to go to whoever. I do have a couple more things I'd like your opinion on.
When you have time, would you look at the photos attached to this message and tell me what you think?
I believe by looking at them that they are the copper back AMD chips? Worth processing at about a pound of them currently? I know they don't yeild a whole lot.