Neutralizer-Scrubber of acidic fumes & gases

[Viy]

We are talking about different things. Exhaust gases have no colors, no smell, and no dust.

The proposed device is a reactor, where the reaction takes place in the volume of the device. The packing prevents air bubbles stick together and increases dwell time of air in volume of solution. Here, the continuous phase has a lye solution, disperse - contaminated air. Instant neutralization reaction occurs on the surface of air bubble, and at emersion, the bubble surface is constantly updated. Contact area of the liquid with gas bubbles is equal surface of all bubbles.

The scrubber is a diffusion device. A continuous phase is contaminated air, disperse - liquid flowing unevenly on packing. Contact of liquid with gas takes place on the packing surface, so it has to be moistened (liquid film, drops). Mass transfer depends on the design of “shower” nozzle; liquid spreads over packing unevenly and tends to the walls of the scrubber. There are dead zones. Contact area depends on the wetted surface of packing, but it is much less than this surface. Therefore, the dwell time of gas in the scrubber is determined experimentally 8 seconds With this organization of the process, air cannot be cleaned fully and need to install additional adsorber and / or to remove air out from the workroom.

Unfortunately, your calculations cannot be used in a development of the industrial neutralizer of my design. It's necessary to conduct experiments of my portable device at maximum loads.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

We are talking about different things. Exhaust gases have no colors, no smell, and no dust.

The proposed device is a reactor, where the reaction takes place in the volume of the device. The packing prevents air bubbles stick together and increases dwell time of air in volume of solution. Here, the continuous phase has a lye solution, disperse - contaminated air. Instant neutralization reaction occurs on the surface of air bubble, and at emersion, the bubble surface is constantly updated. Contact area of the liquid with gas bubbles is equal surface of all bubbles.

The scrubber is a diffusion device. A continuous phase is contaminated air, disperse - liquid flowing unevenly on packing. Contact of liquid with gas takes place on the packing surface, so it has to be moistened (liquid film, drops). Mass transfer depends on the design of “shower” nozzle; liquid spreads over packing unevenly and tends to the walls of the scrubber. There are dead zones. Contact area depends on the wetted surface of packing, but it is much less than this surface. Therefore, the dwell time of gas in the scrubber is determined experimentally 8 seconds With this organization of the process, air cannot be cleaned fully and need to install additional adsorber and / or to remove air out from the workroom.

Unfortunately, your calculations cannot be used in a development of the industrial neutralizer of my design. It's necessary to conduct experiments of my portable device at maximum loads.

Im not a Dr. ..but, i do have a PhD in BS, and it seems as if every single valid point that 4metals and everyone else has made has been skirted around by you, or wrongly invalidated by you to suit your needs and keep your "pristine" appearance for sales.

How do you know all of the gases going through "the volume" have had enough time in the alkali solution to neutralize it all? Is there some great vaccuum control on your dust buster there that i have seemed to overlook on mine here at the house? (i have some stubborn crumbs i just cant seem to suck up..)

Exactly how are the points 4metals made different from your diverted points? You say they are, so they are.. Unquestionably?

How do you know the gas is in there 8 seconds - then, and only then, is it up and gone like a fart in the wind..? Or does the dust buster have a hidden meter and chemistry adjustment that just isnt talked about or seen?

And what exhaust gasses have no color smell or dust? Certainly not any from any AR I have ever done, and im willing to bet 6 bucks and my left nut, that gasses coming out of your "super duper industrial diffusor neutralizer niner" dont make the reaction exhaust gasses perfectly fine either... Theres a reason why almost all of the designs for scrubbers have 3 neutralizing vessels.

 

[4metals]

Topher

I'm willing to bet 6 bucks and my left nut,

There will be no testicle betting on this forum!

But I too am waiting for substantial answers.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

Topher

I'm willing to bet 6 bucks and my left nut,

There will be no testicle betting on this forum!

But I too am waiting for substantial answers.

Haha! Sorry, watched Plane's, Trains, and automobiles last night.. Gets me every time.

But yes, I dont want to be *that* guy, the debbie downer/negative nancy/pessimistic pam... But, the simple questions posed (should be very simple for a Chem PhD..), would be great for the forum (should the device/s in question be of acceptable performance) AND for him... 400 bucks for a decent scrubber would be good for alot of small refiners just starting out, and with the volume of members on this forum with new people joining every day, this gentleman could have an abundance of orders.

It would be in his best interest and ours, to just answer...and answer honestly.

If it can't quite cut the mustard, the members here could easily help him fix the flaws in his design, which would in turn help him sell more units,*and* be able to sleep at night knowing that he has put a good quality product out into the world that isnt going to stop working because the previous owner of the dust buster got a cheeto stuck in it and it just cant quite suck like it should.. Or whatever..

But, if said gentleman just keeps diverting and moving those goal posts back, i dont think much of any endorsement would be coming from the forum, except for the title of " Leading Leprechaun of the Rogue Gallery"

Hell, i want it to work, and work well... I'm rooting for him and his contraption...I just don't like how he has went about his presentation so far this stint, and for ignoring most every valid discussion point (in this thread and the one 5 years ago). But, maybe that is it.. Maybe he is viewing these questions as an attack on his character and ability instead of an opening to a constructive discussion where the wrinkles can get ironed out.

 

[Palladium]

I'm a salesman to! That's what he's doing.
I'm by no means the expert 4metals is on scrubber designs, but i can tell you at least three things you got wrong already. The first was challenging 4metals knowledge! :mrgreen:
The other two could possibly kill you or someone else! If you want to be taken seriously then some science behind the statements would be the way to go. 4metals gave you the numbers you should have already known and all you have done is disregarded the hard science and facts instead of utilizing the knowledge for what it is and the free spirit it was given in. Facts and figures override statements and words.

 

[Noxx]

I'd be willing to design an efficient scrubber for under $500 if there's enough interest.

 

[upcyclist]

- Production Rate. Neutralizer has an opportunity to purify air at dissolving 400-600 g metal and more by simultaneous operation of two reactors

Exhaust gases have no colors, no smell, and no dust.

So you're saying that with your system, if I fully digest 400g of copper (about 2-1/2 rolls of old copper pennies) using 1.6L of 70% nitric acid plus some amount of water, I will see and smell NOTHING in the exhaust?

 

[upcyclist]

I'd be willing to design an efficient scrubber for under $500 if there's enough interest.

That would be awesome--mebbe you could start a poll to gauge interest?

 

[Viy]

We are talking about different things. Exhaust gases have no colors, no smell, and no dust.

I appreciate your humor :lol: :

Please note: 8 seconds in the "empty" scrubber conventional design is 0.8 seconds on my device that is full of liquid

 

[Viy]

Unfortunately, the debate enters in a channel, "That can not be, because it can never be."
Post for Forum:
1. I beg to defer discussion, until anybody which you trust, gives his conclusion
2. Please, find the person who is ready to test my device near Zip 20852. I will carry out the Device, install and turn on to make necessary tests in the presence of this person. I will leave the device as a gift, if he will like it and will report the results to the forum. Everything is free! Minimal waste time!
3. Within 5 years, I have sold approx. 350 devices of different modifications through eBay.

Why there is none negative feedback?

4. Perhaps anyone of the forum already bought a modification of the device for 5 years (2011 -2016) and can advise about its working?

 

[Viy]

- Production Rate. Neutralizer has an opportunity to purify air at dissolving 400-600 g metal and more by simultaneous operation of two reactors

Exhaust gases have no colors, no smell, and no dust.

So you're saying that with your system, if I fully digest 400g of copper (about 2-1/2 rolls of old copper pennies) using 1.6L of 70% nitric acid plus some amount of water, I will see and smell NOTHING in the exhaust?

Yes! However, you should add Nitric Acid by parts in order to manage the process

 

[rewalston]

I'd be willing to design an efficient scrubber for under $500 if there's enough interest.

That would be awesome--mebbe you could start a poll to gauge interest?

I'd definitely look at getting one. But at this time I can't even afford to pay attention. :lol:

 

[4metals]

Viy,

I am getting the impression that you are writing in another language and using some type of translation software. The wording and phrasing just doesn't sound like American English to me.

First let me start out by saying I am not threatened by someone challenging my knowledge on any subject. I am always open to learn new things and potential new methodology. But there is one caveat, the laws of physics happen to be the same in my living room as in anyone else's, so to challenge physics is where I get testy.

But to be clear, there are issues with your exhaust system and retention time that would prevent me from even trying your unit.

Mass transfer depends on the design of “shower” nozzle; liquid spreads over packing unevenly and tends to the walls of the scrubber.

This is true but the general rule for scrubber packing is to redistribute the scrubber liquid when the depth of the packing exceeds 3 times the diameter of the packed column. This is done to prevent channeling of the scrubber liquid. You do not have enough packed depth to worry about channeling

Raschig rings packing 14 L

Your design uses raschig rings for packing, as per your product description you provide 14 liters of rings. That translates to 3.7 gallons of packing in 10 gallons of space. So your packed area drops off dramatically because you are not filling the entire space with packing.

So right off your scrubber is less effective because your packed area is less. And you do not circulate your scrubber liquid, you bubble through static liquid at the bottom of the bucket.

Please note: 8 seconds in the "empty" scrubber conventional design is 0.8 seconds on my device that is full of liquid

Please run this one through the translator again as this makes little sense to me as stated.

So 5 years ago you said this;

I had to design the setup for full neutralization of fumes and gases. Given my background, I made it quickly and with virtually no errors. Now I'm doing Portable Refining Systems (see my eBay - Portable Refining System) that have a commercial success.

So why did you have to redesign it?

Within 5 years, I have sold approx. 350 devices of different modifications through eBay.

Please note there are recirculating fume hoods which pass air back into a workspace after passing the fume through a bed of activated charcoal. These are ineffective for refining. That leaves the types of scrubber where the negative pressure is either drawn by a venturi (eductor) or a corrosion resistant blower motor and both of these types discharge their air outside of the workspace. I don't see your unit, with the in workspace discharge of "scrubbed" air effectively removing the NOx unless the control is as you suggest in your answer to upcyclist's question.

So you're saying that with your system, if I fully digest 400g of copper (about 2-1/2 rolls of old copper pennies) using 1.6L of 70% nitric acid plus some amount of water, I will see and smell NOTHING in the exhaust?


Yes! However, you should add Nitric Acid by parts in order to manage the process

Using this method, adding Nitric by parts, is prudent and even with a professionally made scrubber it is possible to overwhelm the capacity of the unit, however, your scrubber would require aliquots so small for it to be an effective unit that all practicality will be lost.

Thus far in this discussion you have avoided answering the questions posed and replied in technobabble. This sir is the Gold Refining Forum, and as you have seen we see right through technobabble.

We have given you a good opportunity to defend your design and you have effectively deflected all of the questions. Too bad, as there is truly a need for a low cost NOx scrubber for the hobby refiner, but from what you have shown, it isn't yours.

 

[Noxx]

Yup, this is going into the abyss

 

[Viy]

4 metal,
Methodology and philosophy of science suggests a sequence of actions: the first, fixing phenomenon, and if it exists, to try to explain it.
You say that the phenomenon can not be from the point of view of physics. However, there is a operation mode of column apparatus, in which creates a gas-liquid emulsion in certain conditions. In this case, efficiency of mass transfer increases by 5-10 times.
Unfortunately, it turned out that the industrial units in this mode become unstable and researches were stopped in 70 years. Causes of instability I will not discuss here. However, laboratory-type of apparatus have always worked well. In my opinion, the proposed design can be a good addition to purify the air just in small productions.
Therefore, I ask an independent examination.

And yet, how can you explain that I did not get no one negative feedback over years of sales?
Perhaps, the Forum is able to presume that I am not a crook? :lol:

 

[justinhcase]

And yet, how can you explain that I did not get no one negative feedback over years of sales?
Perhaps, the Forum is able to presume that I am not a crook? :lol:

Because you only sold them to poor unsuspecting individuals who lack the education to know better.
And by the time they had started to cough up blood and there belongings had started to dissolve/corrode it was too late to complain to eBay.
That particular trading platform is so full of dishonest people trying to gain monetary advantage by dishonest means I quite despair.
But like a fish out of water your argument keep's twitching.
I do not find distributing equipment that would defraud and harm your clients a laughing matter.
lets hope your local enforcement officers are paying attention.
You clearly lack any kind of background that would qualify you to manufacture and sell chemical scrubbing equipment.
I would suggest any one of a conscientious frame of mind contact local officers so they can take action. If ten or fifteen board member's do so we might just close down one dangerous individual.
Only a sociopath would knowingly sell equipment that is so unfit for purpose.
There may be children and other innocent people harmed by your lack of conscience.
It is bad enough when some one through there own stupidity knocks up such a contraption and damages there own lungs and property.
But am prevented form informing you of an accurate pronoun for what you are short of a disgrace sir.
But just to try and be understanding and taking for granted the possibility you might just be holy uninformed.
A scrubber should not only work under ideal conditions. it has to have considerable redundancy to be considered safe to use. the fact you can not smell any thing when you tried is no indication of a working unit. It only indicates (A) that for a moment in time your unit reduced the NO2 levels with no indication of the effective volume of neutralisation. A direct scrubber rout should only be the primary coping system, even a full QVF system has to sit in a fume control enclosure to be operated inside a building.
(B) no one with any training would be sniffing noxious gas as a test. I mean why would you, don't you like you lungs? just a simple bit of wet indicator paper on your output would give you an accurate test that could be put into a timed graph . How long can your system run against what volume of NO2?
If it was a cheep and easy thing to do why do you think the industry have been spending so much money on kit. If ICI can not do it why do you think you can.

 

[4metals]

there is a operation mode of column apparatus, in which creates a gas-liquid emulsion in certain conditions. In this case, efficiency of mass transfer increases by 5-10 times.

This may or may not be true, but if it does exist, I seriously doubt it was designed around two buckets and a dust buster!

Please stop your inferences that your equipment can share the same stage as some properly designed equipment made for scientific purposes.

You are clearly here with one purpose, to sell your system. By the answers you have given to the questions I will say you are coming dangerously close to being banned for spamming the board.

I too would like to hear from anyone who has purchased this system, but it would be best if it were a long standing member, not someone who joined the board today, that would be just a little too coincidental for me.

 

[Topher_osAUrus]

There is a difference between a salesman, and a con artist.

In my mind, a salesman knows his product, answers questions as they are posed, can talk the lingo, and give peace of mind when a customer (ot potential customer) has concerns.

A con artist will polish that turd to a high glisten, and will indefinitely stick to the "deny til you die" philosophy. The con artist diverts attention, he uses this divertion to take your mind off of all the bullshit and problems that you have brought to attention. He keeps that cheesy grin with his hair slicked back and shoes highly buffed, and starts to pretend to talk to someone on his stupid looking Bluetooth while quickly looking for an exit once he thinks he is found out.

So, I guess we will see you in another 5 years after you "forget your logon password", again.

 

[glorycloud]

I too would like to hear from anyone who has purchased this system, but it would be best if it were a long standing member, not someone who joined the board today, that would be just a little too coincidental for me.

Well I guess I will man up and confess that that would be me. I bought one like this last December
but I barely have opened the box yet.

http://www.ebay.com/itm/141703806812?_trksid=p2060353.m1438.l2649&ssPageName=STRK%3AMEBIDX%3AIT

I am just not a plumbing guy or good with my hands at all (unless it involves a sport requiring
hand eye coordination). I tried asking questions here but it's hard for some to understand my plight.
The easy thing to do was to simply buy a pre-made all inclusive system like this. I guess that I am
the "sucker" that is born every day.

After reading this thread, I am too fearful to set it up now and use it for refining with AR. Anyone
want to take up a collection to buy this from me and let it be used as a guinea pig for someone to do a live
test on it? Or maybe I should just chalk this one up to "lesson learned" and move on. 8)

 

[4metals]

Glory,

Let's start with my condolences, you have been a good contributing member of this forum for longer than me so let's see what we can do help you and to test this unit out. I have read the claims from the eBay add you posted and I would like to read the instructions that came with the unit. Could you possibly take a picture of the instructions and post it, or scan it and somehow post it?

We can walk you through getting this thing running but I would only do it outdoors. But if you provide pictures of the unit you received and the instructions we can help you test this thing out. I notice yours uses short sections of PVC pipe as packing, cheaper but not as effective as Raschig rings.