no more text book reactions

[steyr223]

Hello again people: friends
Something I have been wondering about for quite a while now
It would appear from my past experiences That before I started steaming my auric chloride to rid the chlorine ( I would set it in the Sun for the day) I had near textbook reactions.
Clear in about a minute and then instantly muddy brown after adding smb saturated solution of water equal in volume to my solution.

Now I steam, I have not had a textbook reaction in nearly 40 drops, not that is too stressful anymore I just wait oviernight and the drop happens by sometime the next day.

And I am always left with color
Sometimes the same color it was before the drop.

So I've been thinking about it lately and was wondering if maybe I'm steaming all the water out of the HCl making my solution to acidic so maybe I should add two times the water with my smb

Now I do test all my solution with stannous but that doesn't
work so well after smb

Anyways I'll shut up now I was just wondering what thoughts you all had on this

Thanks steyr223 rob

Btw this post is a result of reading the " neutralizing acid" post by the chemical engineer guy.

 

[Pantherlikher]

Waiting in your question as well but I'm also interested in the sun decaying the Chlorine.
For my swimming pool, All the "experts" say to add after the sun goes down as well as cover when not in use so the Chlorine doesn't decay.
Any ideas on what reacts, if anything, with Chlorine to break it down and into what?

B.S.
...Everyone has said to think outside the box, but I've never been in the box...

 

[steyr223]

How you doing pantherlikher

I believe butcher had said Chlorine does not like being in solution
That when heated it will gas off.

Not Sure of the chemistry But I think lino (not positive) did an experiment
saying that under vacuum chlorine gasses off way quicker
Which I think I'm going to try next

I actually have another question why does the ammonia test
always show white fumes when you steamed off more chlorine ( bleach)
than you added to the mix.
thanks steyr223 rob

 

[etack]

I actually have another question why does the ammonia test
always show white fumes when you steamed off more chlorine ( bleach)
than you added to the mix.

Because it is making Ammonium chloride.

Eric

 

[rusty]

Dechlorination is practiced by some water utilities during releases of chlorinated water.

Several chemical and non-chemical methods are used for chlorine neutralization during such releases. However, dechlorination is still an evolving practice in the water industry. Impacts of dechlorination chemicals on the water quality of receiving streams are not well documented.

For example, over-application of chemicals such as sodium metabisulfite and sulfur dioxide, which are commonly used for dechlorination, may deplete the dissolved oxygen concentration or alter the pH of receiving streams.

Currently, there is no industry guidance or AWWA standards for dechlorination of potable water releases. Recent changes in regulatory approach, that includes a more ecological and watershed perspective, have caused an increased level of scrutiny concerning current dechlorination practices.

The regulatory review can become more significant as some of the secondary impacts of the dechlorinated discharges are more completely understood.

Full article: http://www.vita-d-chlor.com/specs/AWWARFDechlorGuides.htm

H2O2 as a Dechlorination Agent: http://www.h2o2.com/industrial/applications.aspx?pid=107&name=Dechlorination

 

[steyr223]

Thanks guys I read the bottom link
About H202
Now I'm no chemist but, if I wanted to dechlorinate
My auric chloride wth H202 it would just put the gold
Back into solution or does the h202 gas of in the process
But then hydrogen is lower than anything on the teactivity
chart so wouldn't that drop everything in the solution????

1 question turns into 100 more to the unprepared mind

My head hurts
Ok sorry a little off track
Anyone on the actual op would be greatly appreciated

Thanks steyr223 rob

 

[butcher]

Concentrated H2O2 and HCl acid will generate chlorine gas in solution.

Chlorine is a gas Cl2 (g), it can dissolve into water forming HCl (hydrochloric acid) and HOCl (hypochlorous acid).
Cl2 + H2O <--> HCl + HOCl
The hypochlorous acid HOCl is very unstable,
in sunlight (or heat) or in presence of metals (in solution) or basically just time the hypochlorous the HOCl will decompose to form HCl acid and oxygen:

2HOCl + Light --> 2HCl + O2
This is kind of over simplifying it as there are other products formed like HClO3, ClO2...

See the double arrow in the first reaction (which means this equation is reversible or works both ways:
HCl + HOCl <--> Cl2 + H2O
the hypochlorous acid in HCl acid can generate chlorine gas, (the principle we use to dissolve gold).

Hypochlorous acid is more stable in caustic solutions forming hypochlorite (bleach), sodium hypochlorite for example, the caustic NaOH involved helps to keep it from decomposition in the water. upon acidification of the hypochlorite we get hypochlorous acid which begins to decompose, and form chlorine gas as we see above.

Most gases are driven from solution with heat, or are held better into solution when cold, water normally holds oxygen, but if water is heated to about 275 deg. F most of the oxygen gas can be driven from the water, chlorine gas is similar it is held better in cold solutions and can easily be driven out of solution with heat.

Metals being dissolve or reacting with gases can also reduce the gases, as they take electrons from the metal.

chemicals can also reduce or be used to change the gas to another compound, or help drive it from solution in a chemical reaction.

This gets a bit more complicated.

 

[butcher]

PS
Most gases are driven from solution with heat, or are held better into solution when cold, water normally holds oxygen, but if water is heated to about 275 deg. F most of the oxygen gas can be driven from the water, chlorine gas is similar it is held better in cold solutions and can easily be driven out of solution with heat.

Before I start getting mail over the above comment of heating water above its boiling point, to drive out oxygen this is done under pressure, when we heat water in a closed pressure vessel we can raise the boiling point of water.

Likewise if we put water in a closed vessel under a vacuum we can lower the boiling point of the water.

 

[Pantherlikher]

My light bulb just got brighter... I think
So light does help in breaking Cl back into gas as well as heat does? Or is it just the heat derived from sunlight?

Does this mean you can dissolve more metals with cold acid as opposed to warmer? Keeping Cl in solution longer giving more time?

It's a tad confusing when over-thinking as when the reaction seems finished, heating alittle will help dissolve more, which if cold, the Cl will be held in suspension longer slowing the reaction with metals. Adding heat will free Cl to further attack and gas off which makes sense.

Mixing HCL + Bleach causes a violent bubbling reaction which gasses off Cl fast. Colder would hold more Cl in solution longer?

If true, this would help alot with say washing glassware with cold HCL + Bleach as you can only expose so much of the gold trim at any given moment.

If colder slows the overall reaction, could it be used to remove plating? Then take plated material out before it attacks to much of the base metal? Say, gold plating over steel? It might make it easier on some odd things I've run across.
How about on plated costume jewelry for example. Cheap watch band?
I know electrolysis would be a better method overall but in theory would it be helpful to slow the reaction so as to remove the bulk of base metal before it dissolves and plates gold out is my thinking.

Thank you again butcher. The specifics of the formulas I can't possibly remember enough to figure out on thier own so your added explainations are the key to my better understanding of what's going on.
My questions are only for me to better grasp the concepts and applications.

B.S.
Learning to become a true "Urban Miner" finds PMs in the oddest of places.

 

[steyr223]

Thanks butcher that goes along with everything
I read today.

Chlorine is truley the worlds cure or demise depending on how its used.
I never realized how powerfull of a disinfectant that chlorine is.

Anyways I attempted to gas off my chlorine today by putting it under vacuum
As far as I can tell a white gas formed that soon disappeared unless I release the vacuum
and reestablished the vacuum again.
Hey very tiny amount of volume of liquid disappeared, but nowhere near the amount of bleach that I put in my solution . I had it under vacuum for approximately 10 minutes

At this point I left it in the Sun for about 3 hours and then dropped it with smb
And twice the Volume of water
Nothing happened till i put it on heat

About 15 min on heat all the gold precipitated ouyt

 

[steyr223]

Again on my phone when I go past the bottom of the post window
I can type but If i touch my screen to move the cursor I can
never get back below the the window to edit or continue
I do apologize
anyways
the drop was very light tan but was so finely divided
it turned all the solution tan but just sat in suspention
(No powders on bottom after 15 min

It did settle after 4 hours and I melted a bb much smaller
than it should have been
This was dissolutioned twice( I had garbauge in my first powders
(Grass, leaves,etc)

Any comments would be appreciated.
Thanks steyr223 rob

 

[solar_plasma]

( I had garbauge in my first powders
(Grass, leaves,etc)

Did you incinerate?

 

[butcher]

light actually will work in a chemical reactions, (light as well as heat can also work to produce electricity in electronic reactions but that is another topic).

Take photography for example, where we can dissolve silver and make a silver chloride powder (film) and expose this fine layer of AgCl to light, which will change the silver chloride back to a silver metal and elemental chlorine on exposure to light, here the light is acting in a chemical reaction with our silver halide, something similar happens when you have silver chloride in a jar, sitting in the light (after the excess acid is washed out), the silver chloride crystals exposed to light change from a white silver chloride to a violet or blackish silver metal (only the surface of these crystals exposed to the bright sunlight will convert to metal), so most of that silver in the jar remains as silver chloride, and it is possible that even on the inner portions of those converted crystal That did not get good exposure to light that the center portions of those darkened crystals are still uncovered silver chloride.

2AgCl + light --> 2Ag + Cl2

 

[solar_plasma]

Sometimes when I expected a good prcipitation, it took long time to start (hours) and/or to finish (days). Other times I was pretty sure it only would pricipitate poorly, -if at all, because I haven't been exact in the process or impatient, and knew it, - but it gave a pricipitation not good, but to my satifaction under the circumstances. It's my impression, that the influences are many and they interact with high complexity. Obviously only if all parametres are exactly as they should be, a medium or even good precipitation will happen for sure.

That must sound banal to most people, but for me it was another aha experience.

 

[steyr223]

Solar asked "did you incinerate"

Nop! Why? I just redissolved everything in HCl/bleach
>filtered out all crapola and dropped

Banal? Never herd that before. But no
It sounds normal we all can't be complete perfectionists
100% of the time, somedays you can follow step by step
written by your hand, have every chemical and tool
You need ,a perfect sunny day and still things just plain go
Bonkers
sometimes I find my self saying" wow that never happened before"
Or," that is completely impossible", or "what"
Other days on a refining whim, nothing at my disposal,raining,windy
and I get the most awesome reaction ever.
And yes thousands of variables
I have had drops take days and ones where I turned to light
My smoke and it was done
I have had ones so fine and light in suspention
and ones that were rocks so heavy you couln't disturb them even by kicking over
The beaker
ones that turned almost black and ones that never changed
color at all but still dropped
Anyways thanks guys butcher

 

[solar_plasma]

Solar asked "did you incinerate"

Nop! Why? I just redissolved everything in HCl/bleach

Because we learn to incinerate whenever there are organic contaminations. I read a post of one of the mods I think, that organics even could form complexes with those organics, which eventually has a negative effect on the pricipitation. Whenever I by myself, knowingly , stepped over the incineration of even small amounts of organics, I got a unsatisfying result.

That's why I asked. I just wanted to help to exclude sources of error.


banal = "Banal describes something that is common in a boring way, to the point of being predictable." wiki

 

[steyr223]

Solor said
" Whenever I by myself, knowingly , stepped over the incineration of even small amounts of organics, I got a unsatisfying result.«

Hehehe
Didn't I say somewhere in this thread I had melted a bb smaller then it should have been.

Does that qualfy for unsatisfying result.

Thanks point taken

Banal - predictable there shouldn't be any other way

Thanks steyr223 rob

 

[solar_plasma]

Does that qualfy for unsatisfying result.

Maybe that would even qualify to review all solutions an solids :lol:

I am not experienced enough, to say, would to do next. If it was mine, cement on cobber, vaporize all water, incinerate to CuO, remove basies, sorry basemetals, and see what is left? Only if is there is enough gold been lost....otherwise stockpot? I will follow this thread with interest!

 

[steyr223]

Sorry no interest here
In fact very banal :mrgreen:
Most of the guys here no my answer

Only supposed to get 1.5-2.grams
Produced 1.2
yep stockpot
I don't know if I mentioned most od this was left
over containers on my truck some 6 maybe 8
months old that said stuff like"decant off all powders! Or "left from irregular drop if no powders stock pot" one even said " possible smb powders not gold!" It was smb

Did you know when smb is melted if leaves no trace in the dish
Antways I still havr all lsolutions I started with in a stockpot
Thanks steyr223 rob :lol:

 

[Pantherlikher]

Speaking of stock pot.
Banal to most probably but I've been working on my stock pots and find my steel has a gold plating on it under the copper. As I shake, it all falls off nicely.
The steel, not me shaking.
Gold on 1 side of the copper.
This tells me I'm not getting good drops first round while "Collecting" gold.
Not a big deal for me. I'm closing for the winter so my AP will get 1 last copper blast before it gets steel.
I plan to store copper as well as steel when it drops from the higher PH and then in the spring, I'll use the copper to make sure everything's out before moving it into the steel.
Bet you can guess why I'll store them in a jar covered in H2O.

B.S.