Please I need your advise/help!

[kurtak]

you have an excess of hydrochloric acid.
you needed to dry your gold foil.
multiply its weight by 5 and make classic aqua regia
3 parts hydrochloric acid/1 part nitric acid.
For one gram of material there is 5 ml of aqua regia.
an excess of hydrochloric acid does not allow gold to coagulate.

I can assure you that if you dissolve gold foils with "classic" AR (3 parts HCl to one part nitric - or 3ml HCl to 1ml nitric per gram gold) you will end up with excess/free nitric in your AR

Depending on the conditions under which you dissolve the gold you can dissolve a gram of gold foils with as little as 1/2 a ml nitric or less

Example; - under the right conditions (closed reaction vessel & heat) you can dissolve 30 grams of gold foils with only (between) 12 - 15 ml nitric ("sometimes" even as little 10 ml nitric)

on the other hand - if you are trying to dissolve a 30 gram "solid" chunk of gold it will likely take a full ml of nitric per gram gold &/or even as much as 1.5 ml nitric - depending on conditions

The HCL still has to be the same as "classic" AR --- 3 ml HCl (or more) per gram gold --- but the amount of nitric can very (by a lot) depending on the condition under which you are dissolving the gold

Advising new members (beginners) to use "classic" AR to dissolve gold foils is almost always (if not always) why we get new (beginning) members asking why they can't get there gold back out of solution - when they have used classic AR to dissolve their gold foils

Every time - it is because by using classic AR - on foils - they end up with way too much free nitric in their AR so their gold "will not" drop when they add their SMB

Kurt

 

[anachronism]

I can assure you that if you dissolve gold foils with "classic" AR (3 parts HCl to one part nitric - or 3ml HCl to 1ml nitric per gram gold) you will end up with excess/free nitric in your AR

Depending on the conditions under which you dissolve the gold you can dissolve a gram of gold foils with as little as 1/2 a ml nitric or less

Example; - under the right conditions (closed reaction vessel & heat) you can dissolve 30 grams of gold foils with only (between) 12 - 15 ml nitric ("sometimes" even as little 10 ml nitric)

on the other hand - if you are trying to dissolve a 30 gram "solid" chunk of gold it will likely take a full ml of nitric per gram gold &/or even as much as 1.5 ml nitric - depending on conditions

The HCL still has to be the same as "classic" AR --- 3 ml HCl (or more) per gram gold --- but the amount of nitric can very (by a lot) depending on the condition under which you are dissolving the gold

Advising new members (beginners) to use "classic" AR to dissolve gold foils is almost always (if not always) why we get new (beginning) members asking why they can't get there gold back out of solution - when they have used classic AR to dissolve their gold foils

Every time - it is because by using classic AR - on foils - they end up with way too much free nitric in their AR so their gold "will not" drop when they add their SMB

Kurt

Correct. If youre using AR for foils, heat the HCl and add Nitric by the drop. Takes very very little....

 

[anarxi]

I can assure you that if you dissolve gold foils with "classic" AR (3 parts HCl to one part nitric - or 3ml HCl to 1ml nitric per gram gold) you will end up with excess/free nitric in your AR

Depending on the conditions under which you dissolve the gold you can dissolve a gram of gold foils with as little as 1/2 a ml nitric or less

Example; - under the right conditions (closed reaction vessel & heat) you can dissolve 30 grams of gold foils with only (between) 12 - 15 ml nitric ("sometimes" even as little 10 ml nitric)

on the other hand - if you are trying to dissolve a 30 gram "solid" chunk of gold it will likely take a full ml of nitric per gram gold &/or even as much as 1.5 ml nitric - depending on conditions

The HCL still has to be the same as "classic" AR --- 3 ml HCl (or more) per gram gold --- but the amount of nitric can very (by a lot) depending on the condition under which you are dissolving the gold

Advising new members (beginners) to use "classic" AR to dissolve gold foils is almost always (if not always) why we get new (beginning) members asking why they can't get there gold back out of solution - when they have used classic AR to dissolve their gold foils

Every time - it is because by using classic AR - on foils - they end up with way too much free nitric in their AR so their gold "will not" drop when they add their SMB

Kurt

I have urea and copper for this case

although you are right, I did not dissolve the foil.
I would make these fingers in parts, in two liter glasses, with one solution.

 

[kurtak]

I have urea and copper for this case

Or don't over use nitric in the first place

Kurt

 

[Etyoin]

Hello Everyone,

I appreciated all of you advises, help and sharing your knowledge with me.

I took conclusion from all these information you provided kindly and I have to take into account all my possible options at this point what's the best way to continue my first experiment.

What I have learnt? To be patient, ask if you are not sure about something before do it, calculate how much value you procced otherwise you will end up using too much chemicals, study study study.... I also studied a bit of AP process.

My options are the following as I see but please tell me if I'm wrong.

- use off the free nitric one of the way you mentioned above. (cementing, evaporate, add more gold to the solution)
- get more material increase the amount of gold to be refined

Of course until this point I didn't think it was relevant but I have a chance to purchase about +/- 70 laptop, 10-15 apple workstation and few mobile and tablets £100 for all from legit source. I guess I can refine more value from this than £100 and I can have enough foils out to add to my existing solution.

Also, friends of mine found a cleaning product that seems HCl 36%. Could it be possible it is clean HCl or it is fake? Please see on the attached photo.

To make AP I have the following chemicals Hydrogen peroxide 3% and Sodium hypochlorite 14-15%. Do I need anything else to process with AP in the future?

Thank you,
Robert

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hello Everyone,

I appreciated all of you advises, help and sharing your knowledge with me.

I took conclusion from all these information you provided kindly and I have to take into account all my possible options at this point what's the best way to continue my first experiment.

What I have learnt? To be patient, ask if you are not sure about something before do it, calculate how much value you procced otherwise you will end up using too much chemicals, study study study.... I also studied a bit of AP process.

My options are the following as I see but please tell me if I'm wrong.

- use off the free nitric one of the way you mentioned above. (cementing, evaporate, add more gold to the solution)
- get more material increase the amount of gold to be refined

Of course until this point I didn't think it was relevant but I have a chance to purchase about +/- 70 laptop, 10-15 apple workstation and few mobile and tablets £100 for all from legit source. I guess I can refine more value from this than £100 and I can have enough foils out to add to my existing solution.

Also, friends of mine found a cleaning product that seems HCl 36%. Could it be possible it is clean HCl or it is fake? Please see on the attached photo.

To make AP I have the following chemicals Hydrogen peroxide 3% and Sodium hypochlorite 14-15%. Do I need anything else to process with AP in the future?

Thank you,
Robert

It is hard to say what you can get out of this.
Anyway you will have some work depopulating and prepping material for refining.

For Cupric Chloride aka AP you need two things Copper and HCl well and some way to get air into your solution.
Most use a aquarium air pump.
Best if the Copper is corroded.
No need for Peroxide even though it will kick start it.

And Hypochlorite should be stored for another project as it will basically ruin the AP.

 

[Etyoin]

It is hard to say what you can get out of this.
Anyway you will have some work depopulating and prepping material for refining.

For Cupric Chloride aka AP you need two things Copper and HCl well and some way to get air into your solution.
Most use a aquarium air pump.
Best if the Copper is corroded.
No need for Peroxide even though it will kick start it.

And Hypochlorite should be stored for another project as it will basically ruin the AP.

Thank you.

I'll do a research on the forum for how to process AP step by step guide.

Robert

 

[haveagojoe]

I have a chance to purchase about +/- 70 laptop, 10-15 apple workstation and few mobile and tablets £100 for all from legit source. I guess I can refine more value from this than £100 and I can have enough foils out to add to my existing solution.

Maybe I am pessimistic but I think you would be lucky to get £100 of gold from these items, especially if they are more modern ones which have a lot less gold in. Often the RAM will be removed when they are sold like that, sometimes also the processor. There is not much else of value in a laptop. I think for e-scrap it's not really worth it if you're paying for source material, it's only really worthwhile if you get it for free. Maybe the phones would be ok, but personally I would not want to pay more than 50p or so each. You have to consider the cost of the chemicals, gas and power, and also your time. You might get lucky and find a few working items which you can re-sell on ebay, which could pay for the rest, in which case it might be worthwhile.

Also don't forget that laptops and computers take up a lot of space, and after processing you will be left with a large amount of plastic and other waste which can be difficult to get rid of- if you take it to the county tip they may want to charge you as a business user.

If the laptops and computers still have RAM and processors, and you have space to store them and plenty of free time perhaps you could offer them £50 and see what they say. I would expect they would be happy to get rid of them as they take up so much space. If they say no, go back in a few weeks time and offer again, I bet they change their mind.

Sourcing escrap is not as easy as it used to be, and the amount of gold it contains is not so high. I think phones are quite a good place to start, ask around your friends- people don't like throwing them away so most people have a few old ones in the back of a drawer somewhere they might let you have for nothing. But bear in mind that for 1 troy ounce of gold you need about 1000 phones.

 

[haveagojoe]

friends of mine found a cleaning product that seems HCl 36%. Could it be possible it is clean HCl or it is fake? Please see on the attached photo.

It's should be what it says on the label, is it an old bottle? Nowadays the maximum strength we can buy in the UK without a licence is 10%, which is still ok to use. It's sold as brick/concrete cleaner. When it's sold like this it has a foaming agent in it which makes it bubble up which is annoying but doesn't affect the processes.

 

[Etyoin]

Maybe I am pessimistic but I think you would be lucky to get £100 of gold from these items, especially if they are more modern ones which have a lot less gold in. Often the RAM will be removed when they are sold like that, sometimes also the processor. There is not much else of value in a laptop. I think for e-scrap it's not really worth it if you're paying for source material, it's only really worthwhile if you get it for free. Maybe the phones would be ok, but personally I would not want to pay more than 50p or so each. You have to consider the cost of the chemicals, gas and power, and also your time. You might get lucky and find a few working items which you can re-sell on ebay, which could pay for the rest, in which case it might be worthwhile.

Also don't forget that laptops and computers take up a lot of space, and after processing you will be left with a large amount of plastic and other waste which can be difficult to get rid of- if you take it to the county tip they may want to charge you as a business user.

If the laptops and computers still have RAM and processors, and you have space to store them and plenty of free time perhaps you could offer them £50 and see what they say. I would expect they would be happy to get rid of them as they take up so much space. If they say no, go back in a few weeks time and offer again, I bet they change their mind.

Sourcing escrap is not as easy as it used to be, and the amount of gold it contains is not so high. I think phones are quite a good place to start, ask around your friends- people don't like throwing them away so most people have a few old ones in the back of a drawer somewhere they might let you have for nothing. But bear in mind that for 1 troy ounce of gold you need about 1000 phones.

Thanks for this information. I will bear in mind. I'll negotiate the price and let's see if he want sell quiet cheap then I'll buy it otherwise I let it go.

Robert

 

[Etyoin]

It's should be what it says on the label, is it an old bottle? Nowadays the maximum strength we can buy in the UK without a licence is 10%, which is still ok to use. It's sold as brick/concrete cleaner. When it's sold like this it has a foaming agent in it which makes it bubble up which is annoying but doesn't affect the processes.

Thanks.

Yes, I know that's why I was surprised. As I'm a EPP licence holder I know HCl above 10% is regulated substance.

I've checked their website and it seems they ask for licence now.
But it seems it is HCl 36%.

So probably my friend have it long ago.

Robert

 

[haveagojoe]

it seems it is HCl 36%.

Good to have! I would keep it for AR and use the normal 10% stuff for AP. But I guess if you have the licence you can get more when you need it.

 

[Etyoin]

Good to have! I would keep it for AR and use the normal 10% stuff for AP. But I guess if you have the licence you can get more when you need it.

Thanks, Joe. You absolutely right, I'll do that.
Is there any forum link where I can find proper step by step AP guide including the amount of chemical I have to use?

Robert

 

[Yggdrasil]

Thanks, Joe. You absolutely right, I'll do that.
Is there any forum link where I can find proper step by step AP guide including the amount of chemical I have to use?

Robert

This is why we ask people to study.
If you ask step by step it is an indication you do not know enough to ask the correct questions.
Step by step is only correct within a very limited setting so if one of the parameters change so do the step by step.
For AP we can say this general setting: Add HCl to cover your material, add a bit of corroded Copper, a cap of Peroxide 3% and start the air bubbler.
The Copper and Peroxide is optional.
Then adjust as needed underways.
Add more HCl or/and water when needed.

 

[Etyoin]

This is why we ask people to study.
If you ask step by step it is an indication you do not know enough to ask the correct questions.
Step by step is only correct within a very limited setting so if one of the parameters change so do the step by step.
For AP we can say this general setting: Add HCl to cover your material, add a bit of corroded Copper, a cap of Peroxide 3% and start the air bubbler.
The Copper and Peroxide is optional.
Then adjust as needed underways.
Add more HCl or/and water when needed.

Thank you, Yggdrasil.

I'll definitely want to do more study on AP process. I know it all depends the materials I want to proceed pin (kovar or not) or fingers etc.
Do you mean corroded Copper = oxidized Copper?
Sorry I meant above, where can I start my study on the forum. Is there any basics for AP process?

Thanks,
Robert

 

[Shark]

Sorry I meant above, where can I start my study on the forum. Is there any basics for AP process?

A basic forum search using the magnifying glass symbol at the top of every page.

https://goldrefiningforum.com/search/110449/?q=ap&o=relevance

 

[4metals]

Or for an AP thread you can just start HERE

 

[Etyoin]

A basic forum search using the magnifying glass symbol at the top of every page.

https://goldrefiningforum.com/search/110449/?q=ap&o=relevance

Or for an AP thread you can just start HERE

Thank you!

 

[haveagojoe]

Thanks, Joe. You absolutely right, I'll do that.
Is there any forum link where I can find proper step by step AP guide including the amount of chemical I have to use?

Robert

I made a thread for you here: https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/ap-copper-chloride-process-how-i-do-it-step-by-step.35311/

 

[Etyoin]

I made a thread for you here: https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/ap-copper-chloride-process-how-i-do-it-step-by-step.35311/

Thank you so much, Joe.
I appreciated your work and time to made this.
I'll follow your thread to further study of AP process.

Many thanks,
Robert