Poor man's nitric vs nitric cost _poormansnitric_

[icejj]

Has anyone calculated the cost to make an amount of poorman's nitric (using the cold method) that would be equivalent to the digestive capabilities of 1 liter of 67-70% nitric? Also, how much (i.e. in terms of volume) poorman's nitric would be equivalent to of 1 liter of 67-70% nitric. I'm trying to figure out how cost effective (including one's time and effort) it is to go the poor man's route. I'm thinking about doing some tests to try to figure it out, but if someone else has already done it then that would be great.

 

[eaglekeeper]

I think the only way to get a true "apples to apples" comparison would be to use lab quality reagents...just my thoughts.

 

[Shark]

What it comes down to is do you have enough time to make it in quantity?

I have made it, still do at times under certain situations. But if I need a couple liters, I prefer to buy it. At one time I was doing enough gold filled that making the nitric took more time than running the material. I was getting gold filled for 50 cents a gram and getting 1 to 4 pounds a week. Sometimes twice a week. At that rate even a gallon of high priced nitric is well worth the cost. I have driven 150 miles one way to get 5 gallons and still made very good profits. I know not everyone is doing that well, but being prepared for that odd contingency is worth it. I enjoyed making it, I just hated being rushed doing it. If I am going to be in a rush, I prefer it to be on the profit end.

 

[icejj]

What it comes down to is do you have enough time to make it in quantity?

I have made it, still do at times under certain situations. But if I need a couple liters, I prefer to buy it. At one time I was doing enough gold filled that making the nitric took more time than running the material. I was getting gold filled for 50 cents a gram and getting 1 to 4 pounds a week. Sometimes twice a week. At that rate even a gallon of high priced nitric is well worth the cost. I have driven 150 miles one way to get 5 gallons and still made very good profits. I know not everyone is doing that well, but being prepared for that odd contingency is worth it. I enjoyed making it, I just hated being rushed doing it. If I am going to be in a rush, I prefer it to be on the profit end.

I believe that I do have enough time to make it in quantity. But I'm thinking that I would need gallons of it. So are you saying that with you having a steady amount of volume coming in weekly, and based on the cost of your scrap, that it was well worth buying nitric instead of making it?

 

[Shark]

So are you saying that with you having a steady amount of volume coming in weekly, and based on the cost of your scrap, that it was well worth buying nitric instead of making it?

Yes, it is what I am saying. I would spend that time looking for new sources of material over using it to make something I could buy. Even at $1 a gram, paying for a gallon of nitric acid is a profitable margin at the price of gold these days. Then there is the aspect of dealing with our waste, something that takes more time as we do larger volumes. As a home refiner, waste clean up uses up a fair bit of time. If we pay someone to do it then we need that larger profit margin to cover those cost’s.

The other side of it is that making nitric is a good study in chemistry. Something I had practically no experience with until I got involved with refining and needed to learn about. I am still reading about it, trying to learn more about it. I have become almost as interested in the chemistry side as much as the refining side.

It really is different for each person, how much time we have, how much we are willing to use that time and how we divide it up for the most profit from it. I like having the spare time to spend on other things these days, but even these other things still have a curious chemistry aspect for me.

 

[William656]

Just to chime in....

I am also curious myself and figuring it out seems like it requires a bit more knowledge than I have yet to aquire. But the explanation that everyone is different in how they divide their time is spot on.

For now, I am very successful using nitrate salts and sulfuric acid for my digestions. I get the agricultural grade salt for $64 for a 55lb bag, and the sulfuric for ~$22/gallon. I add my incinerated metal to a 5000ml beaker. Add distilled water. Then, I produce the nitric "en situ" by adding the sulfuric acid to the distilled water, then the nitric salt.

For 300 grams of gold filled scrap (note I'm using gold filled), I start with 1,200ml of distilled, 100ml sulfuric, and 200ml of nitric salt (note I use volume). I need to repeat this about 4 times to to get all base metal to dissolve.

So, I'm not needing to make nitric acid, it makes itself while dissolving the base metals. I am pleased with the results as it appears very effective. However I have not used 67-70% nitric before.

I have also used this process for inquarted gold, and used nitric salt for my poor man's aqua regia. I have not once felt compelled to buy nitric acid using this method.

I am a hobby refiner and only refine half a kilo or so of gold filled scrap a week because I have a job that takes most of my time. I'm sure others will have other opinions based on their time constraints and experiences, but this works very well for me.

Cheers and thanks for starting this thread.

 

[icejj]

Just to chime in....

I get the agricultural grade salt for $64 for a 55lb bag, and the sulfuric for ~$22/gallon. I add my incinerated metal to a 5000ml beaker. Add distilled water.

For 300 grams of gold filled scrap (note I'm using gold filled), I start with 1,200ml of distilled, 100ml sulfuric, and 200ml of nitric salt (note I use volume). I need to repeat this about 4 times to to get all base metal to dissolve.

This is very helpful and informative. On average, it takes me about 3ml of nitric per gram of gold filled (i.e. 3:1 ratio) to get rid of the base metals using 67-70% nitric. This ratio is consistent with what I've seen others say. So for me, 300 grams of gold filled should take somewhere around 900ml of nitric and 900ml of distilled water for a total volume of 1800ml. Right now I'm getting 1 liter of 60-70% nitric for about $18 (the reader should insert their cost for 1 liter), including shipping. Based on @William656 processing method, 300 grams of gold filled should take roughly around 4800ml of distilled water, 400ml of sulfuric, and 800ml of nitric salt. Correct? @William656 I'm not sure as to how much 800ml of nitric salt would weigh in grams, but if you weigh it then you should be able to calculate the overall cost and compare it to the cost of 900ml of nitric .

 

[icejj]

@William656 what type of agricultural grade salt do you use and where do you get it from? I saw this 10lb bag of sodium nitrate on dudadiesel and it's $35 when I add shipping, but it also says that it's 99% pure... Getting salt for $64 for a $55lb bag sounds a lot better to me, but what is the purity?

 

[William656]

@William656 what type of agricultural grade salt do you use and where do you get it from? I saw this 10lb bag of sodium nitrate on dudadiesel and it's $35 when I add shipping, but it also says that it's 99% pure... Getting salt for $64 for a $55lb bag sounds a lot better to me, but what is the purity?

Here is a pic of what I use. Looks like its actually 50 pounds, lol. I also included a pic of a partial MSDS sheet that answers your specific questions on purity (it’s listed as 99.3% pure).

I cannot find an MSDS sheet on the Duda Diesel product (i used to use it too, and also worked very well).

All of these salts (potassium, sodium, magnesium) all have only a small percent of available nitrate to be converted to nitric acid in the reaction. Again, i cannot find info on the Duda Diesel product (I hear claims of 13%-16%). So, remember that, even though it’s 99+% pure, that INCLUDES the sodium fraction which is over 80% of the product’s weight.

I have learned not to use Calcium Nitrate. This is another type of salt that’s available as a fertilizer, however I heard the calcium reacts in a way that forms gypsum which makes it super hard to filter. DON’T USE CALCIUM NITRATE.

The product I use is 13.7% nitrate. The rest is potassium. This is more than enough to do the job effectively as outlined in my previous post. The Duda Diesel product works exactly the same way, with possibly a minor difference in the amount of nitrate available (a bit lower or higher, unclear).

I get my product at an agricultural supply store called Grow West. Any community that is involved in agriculture should have a supply store like this and should have it available. It’s so cheap and better than buying online. I store mine in a 5 gallon bucket with a lid I got from Walmart for $5.

Oh, another thing, this stuff is fine flaked. It dissolves much easier than the prilled form. My understanding is the prilled form is coated and designed for slow dissolution. I don’t know if that's true, all I know is this stuff I now use dissolves much quicker = faster reactions.

Cheers.

 

[Shark]

I always used HiYield sodium nitrate. It is cheap, available locally, and works well. The contaminants in it are easily filtered out without changing my process and has never caused a problem for me. I have never checked the purity but it can be cleaned up by dissolving it in water, and dehydrating it back into a crystal form. The “dirty” stuff is of a size that almost any filter will catch it as well, even the average coffee filter.

 

[icejj]

Here is a pic of what I use. Looks like its actually 50 pounds, lol. I also included a pic of a partial MSDS sheet that answers your specific questions on purity (it’s listed as 99.3% pure).

I cannot find an MSDS sheet on the Duda Diesel product (i used to use it too, and also worked very well).

All of these salts (potassium, sodium, magnesium) all have only a small percent of available nitrate to be converted to nitric acid in the reaction. Again, i cannot find info on the Duda Diesel product (I hear claims of 13%-16%). So, remember that, even though it’s 99+% pure, that INCLUDES the sodium fraction which is over 80% of the product’s weight.

I have learned not to use Calcium Nitrate. This is another type of salt that’s available as a fertilizer, however I heard the calcium reacts in a way that forms gypsum which makes it super hard to filter. DON’T USE CALCIUM NITRATE.

The product I use is 13.7% nitrate. The rest is potassium. This is more than enough to do the job effectively as outlined in my previous post. The Duda Diesel product works exactly the same way, with possibly a minor difference in the amount of nitrate available (a bit lower or higher, unclear).

I get my product at an agricultural supply store called Grow West. Any community that is involved in agriculture should have a supply store like this and should have it available. It’s so cheap and better than buying online. I store mine in a 5 gallon bucket with a lid I got from Walmart for $5.

Oh, another thing, this stuff is fine flaked. It dissolves much easier than the prilled form. My understanding is the prilled form is coated and designed for slow dissolution. I don’t know if that's true, all I know is this stuff I now use dissolves much quicker = faster reactions.

Cheers.

Thanks for the info.

 

[icejj]

I always used HiYield sodium nitrate. It is cheap, available locally, and works well. The contaminants in it are easily filtered out without changing my process and has never caused a problem for me. I have never checked the purity but it can be cleaned up by dissolving it in water, and dehydrating it back into a crystal form. The “dirty” stuff is of a size that almost any filter will catch it as well, even the average coffee filter.

Thank you!

 

[eaglekeeper]

Thank you!

I used to get my Sodium nitrate (nitrate of soda) at my local Ace hardware store, but for some reason they haven't carried it in awhile.





My local Ace hardware still carry Calcium nitrate.....and I do have a few bags, but I don't like using it.

 

[Shark]

Calcium will make a better poormans nitric, where the sulfate can be removed, than it does used as poormans AR.

If you make nitric with calcium nitrate, the gypsum left over will settle very compactly given time, such that the nitric can be siphoned off, (even poured at times) although the container maybe be destroyed trying to remove the salts afterwards. It will also produce a better volume per pound than sodium nitrate.

With either sodium, potassium or calcium, some extra nitric can be salvaged from the salts using a vacuum funnel and allowing time for it to work slowly. To much vacuum and it will self boil potentially ruining your nitric.

Making nitric early on was a good way to practice some chemistry when I didn’t have material to work with. I wish I had more real chemistry schooling before trying to refine, it would have been a big asset in understanding what was going on with the processes as I tried them.

 

[icejj]

Here is a pic of what I use. Looks like its actually 50 pounds, lol. I also included a pic of a partial MSDS sheet that answers your specific questions on purity (it’s listed as 99.3% pure).

I cannot find an MSDS sheet on the Duda Diesel product (i used to use it too, and also worked very well).

All of these salts (potassium, sodium, magnesium) all have only a small percent of available nitrate to be converted to nitric acid in the reaction. Again, i cannot find info on the Duda Diesel product (I hear claims of 13%-16%). So, remember that, even though it’s 99+% pure, that INCLUDES the sodium fraction which is over 80% of the product’s weight.

I have learned not to use Calcium Nitrate. This is another type of salt that’s available as a fertilizer, however I heard the calcium reacts in a way that forms gypsum which makes it super hard to filter. DON’T USE CALCIUM NITRATE.

The product I use is 13.7% nitrate. The rest is potassium. This is more than enough to do the job effectively as outlined in my previous post. The Duda Diesel product works exactly the same way, with possibly a minor difference in the amount of nitrate available (a bit lower or higher, unclear).

I get my product at an agricultural supply store called Grow West. Any community that is involved in agriculture should have a supply store like this and should have it available. It’s so cheap and better than buying online. I store mine in a 5 gallon bucket with a lid I got from Walmart for $5.

Oh, another thing, this stuff is fine flaked. It dissolves much easier than the prilled form. My understanding is the prilled form is coated and designed for slow dissolution. I don’t know if that's true, all I know is this stuff I now use dissolves much quicker = faster reactions.

Cheers.

So the first number in the three numbers (13.7-0-46) represents the percentage of nitrate? Is it correct to assume that the amount of the other two numbers, that I assume represent a different chemical/compound, won't affect the recovery process?

 

[Yggdrasil]

So the first number in the three numbers (13.7-0-46) represents the percentage of nitrate? Is it correct to assume that the amount of the other two numbers, that I assume represent a different chemical/compound, won't affect the recovery process?

I think it is the elements.
Not the chemical.

 

[William656]

So the first number in the three numbers (13.7-0-46) represents the percentage of nitrate? Is it correct to assume that the amount of the other two numbers, that I assume represent a different chemical/compound, won't affect the recovery process?

Corret. The 1st number is the nitrate, the second is EDIT: Phosphorus and the third is potassium. It realtes to plant food as these are the three macronutrients plants need.

I mean Phosphorus. Not magnesium.. long day.. Thank you.

Calcium will make a better poormans nitric, where the sulfate can be removed, than it does used as poormans AR.

Shark,
Is there any advantage to using calcium over….. say…. Potassium nitrate?

 

[Yggdrasil]

Corret. The 1st number is the nitrate, the second is magnesium, and the third is potassium. It realtes to plant food as these are the three macronutrients plants need.


Shark,
Is there any advantage to using calcium over….. say…. Potassium nitrate?

N-P-K which is Nitrogen, Phosphorus and Potassium.

Simplified it is like this:
The Potassium and Sodium Sulphates are water soluble so they stay in solution,
Calcium Sulphate is not and forms a solid that can be removed after.

 

[eaglekeeper]

I wish I had more real chemistry schooling before trying to refine, it would have been a big asset in understanding what was going on with the processes as I tried them.

I know the feeling....I have no chemistry background either.

If you make nitric with calcium nitrate, the gypsum left over will settle very compactly given time, such that the nitric can be siphoned off, (even poured at times) although the container maybe be destroyed trying to remove the salts afterwards. It will also produce a better volume per pound than sodium nitrate.

I always had issues using Calcium nitrate, but it could be the amounts that I'm using is wrong. The Calcium nitrate that I have is Hi-yield 15.5-0-0 NPK. I figured since nitrate of soda was 16-0-0 NPK that it would be the same amounts +/-.

172g Calcium nitrate dissolved in 100 ml of water
56 ml sulfuric acid added slowly

By the time I have added all the sulfuric acid the breaker sulfates up and there's not much clear nitric to siphon off. I had to pour/scrap everything into a coffee filter to get anything. Maybe I'm not letting it settle long enough...I don't know. What nitric I did get out works just fine.

 

[Yggdrasil]

I know the feeling....I have no chemistry background either.



I always had issues using Calcium nitrate, but it could be the amounts that I'm using is wrong. The Calcium nitrate that I have is Hi-yield 15.5-0-0 NPK. I figured since nitrate of soda was 16-0-0 NPK that it would be the same amounts +/-.

172g Calcium nitrate dissolved in 100 ml of water
56 ml sulfuric acid added slowly

By the time I have added all the sulfuric acid the breaker sulfates up and there's not much clear nitric to siphon off. I had to pour/scrap everything into a coffee filter to get anything. Maybe I'm not letting it settle long enough...I don't know. What nitric I did get out works just fine.

I have not tried it so don't take this for sure.
How about mixing the Sulfuric and water and then adding the Calcium Nitrate under heavy stirring?
Would that be a possibility?