Non-Chemical Pouring exactly 1 troy ounce at a time

[Anonymous]

I am a long time gold dealer. Lately I have been wanting more and more to refine my gold myself. I have mapped out the process in theory, but there is one aspect that I can not get a handle on.

How does one pour exactly 1 troy ounce of gold?

Since people prefer standard denominations, I want to be able to pour exactly 1 troy ounce. I can buy the ingot tray/mold for 1 ounce. But, how do I pour exactly 1 ounce in. Do I pour in more then one ounce, then let it harden, and slowly file away gold until it weighs exactly 1 ounce. It seems like this would take too much time to do it this way.

 

[Harold_V]

You don't. You also do NOT alter ingots. Once an ingot shows sign of having been altered, the markings have no credibility. How is one to know that the weight is as presented without re-weighing?

Your options are to either shoot for an ounce and settle for the results, marking accordingly, or to roll gold to a specific thickness, punch planchets and form ingots in a die. Assuming the target weight of the desired ingot is missed, the planchets can be adjusted for weight because the forming will cold flow the material, filling the die completely, assuming you have enough tonnage for the press.

As an individual, it isn't likely you can benefit from the second option. Not only does it require a large investment, there isn't the demand for gold from unrecognized sources, although it's possible you can produce an excellent product.

One easy option is to serve the manufacturing industry, where refined gold of high quality (9995 or better) can be poured to shot and sold to jewelry manufacturers. That, too, may be difficult in that not all jewelers will trust an unknown source. The nice part is you can do this without expending funds for equipment that you may not use.

Harold

 

[qst42know]

You could shot it first and only melt an ounce at a time adding a couple grains to be sure.

 

[Harold_V]

You could shot it first and only melt an ounce at a time adding a couple grains to be sure.

That is not a solution. Not all of the gold will pour each time, and there are times when it will. The difference is what creates the problem, being an unknown. By adding extra weight, occasionally the right amount will pour, but, in general, you'll find you get random ingots, in spite of your hardest and best attempts. I spent a great deal of time on this issue and never managed to master a process that was reliable.

A good portion of the problem comes from a miniscule amount of gold that remains in the melting vessel, then gets combined with the following heat. It is not consistent, but random. Unless you weigh each ingot after it is poured, and calculate the amount left behind, you run blind. Even that may not be a solution, especially if the feed is gold powder, as opposed to gold that has been once melted.

Unless you are willing to mark the as cast condition, you can find yourself melting the ingots time and again in the hopes of achieving your intended goal.

Note the markings on the ingots pictured, below. The target weight in all cases was ten ounces.

Harold

 

[butcher]

beutiful gold , that would pay off my property, then wouldnt be giving my money away in interest.

 

[qst42know]

I would assume rolling to an exact thickness would also lead to minute errors as well. It wouldn't require much thickness error to change the weight greatly. Even the film from the US mint shows them edge trimming the slugs before coining to achieve a precise weight. I would guess Harold's ingots to be as near to precise as would be practical for all but the fattest wallets.

 

[viacin]

Question. Why not just melt it into shot, then send it to some place like kitco and have them send you back minted bars? I don't mean for them to actually melt your gold, but just exchange your shot for bars like credit suisse or whatnot. I know you will be losing 2% + the fee's, but perhaps it would be worth it if you took the time it takes to make the ingots and process more gold instead - plus the gas, mold, and stamp savings.

This could be a time saver, plus you no longer have the worry associated with stamping your bars .999%. Also, it eliminates the fact that people do not like buying gold from unrecognized sources, as Harold had mentioned.

Any thoughts?

 

[Harold_V]

Your suggestion is likely spot on, assuming you don't mind taking a huge loss on the transaction. If you think these entities are there for your pleasure, you have a great deal to learn yet.

Their purpose is to make money----which they do by charging fees for everything they do----as well as by paying less than value for material submitted, and selling for greater value. Anything that is submitted will be considered as impure, so there will be fees attached for sampling, plus fees for the exchange. You might find you'd be just as well off to submit the scrap as to go through the process of recovery and refining. All depends on the nature of the scrap, of course. E scrap may well be an exception, but you'll earn every dime that comes from processing the stuff.

There's considerable satisfaction in properly refining your values and casting your own ingots. In time, you will even become recognized for your skills, assuming you achieve a high level of purity. I'd encourage anyone that is interested in doing so to pursue casting and properly marking their gold.

Harold

 

[SilverFox]

Your suggestion is likely spot on, assuming you don't mind taking a huge loss on the transaction. If you think these entities are there for your pleasure, you have a great deal to learn yet.

Their purpose is to make money----which they do by charging fees for everything they do----as well as by paying less than value for material submitted, and selling for greater value. Anything that is submitted will be considered as impure, so there will be fees attached for sampling, plus fees for the exchange. You might find you'd be just as well off to submit the scrap as to go through the process of recovery and refining. All depends on the nature of the scrap, of course. E scrap may well be an exception, but you'll earn every dime that comes from processing the stuff.

Great Answer!

There's considerable satisfaction in properly refining your values and casting your own ingots. In time, you will even become recognized for your skills, assuming you achieve a high level of purity. I'd encourage anyone that is interested in doing so to pursue casting and properly marking their gold.

Harold

Honestly if I had not lost my dive shop to creditors I would pay for your advice, it has been instrumental in my steering my development.

 

[viacin]

Well Harold, you're right. If you are in this for the fun and personal enjoyment that refining brings, then there is no substitute for good 'ole homemade ingots. And if you have already processed it, then it may be cheaper to complete the steps and make your own bars. However, your answer has raised a question in my mind....if you consider only the monetary gains.

Why refine at all? Why not simply buy scrap from Point A and sell it to us refiners at Point B for your profit? Hardly any overhead, no chemicals to worry about, no actual work involved, and you make your profits very quickly with almost no trouble at all. We all know how high just a bit of scrap jewelry sells on ebay, usually well over the price of the gold in it. Why not join their ranks? Do I speak of treason? I hope not. I must admit, once you get the gold fever it's hard to fight. Seeing your gold in a beaker is just as good, if not better, as seeing it in a gold pan as far as I'm concerned.

However, I'm still looking for that "Point A". I'm sure it exists, but so far every source for scrap jewelry I have followed has turned out a dead end. Estate sales, auctions, advertisments, etc. It seems everyone is in on the great gold grab and is willing to pay too much for it too. I would like to hear some of the pro's "Point A's" to be honest. But that's like asking a shark to share his catch. Hardly going to happen I would think.

 

[Lou]

A lot of it is just how you talk to people and how you come across to them. Be professional and persuade them that going through you is the best option for them. There will be people that will stonewall you no matter how adroit you are, but those are often the guys you want to earn as clients.

If you're looking for Point A, best look into scrap that not many people know how to process or go after. Look on ebay at dental scrap--I've spent about $10K on dental gold (both used an as pennyweight ingots) from ebay and I've probably made about 25% on it, and that's just sending it straight to ARA (and another) and letting them handle it. That's after insurance, shipping, and market fluctuation. Much of this came off of one fellow who did consignment for the dental industry--he bought a bunch of material from a dental lab, and I bought a bit off of him, he liked dealing with me, so we started dealing outside of ebay, saving him fees, and me competition.

 

[Harold_V]

Why refine at all? Why not simply buy scrap from Point A and sell it to us refiners at Point B for your profit?

It all depends on one's objective, eh?

It may come as a surprise to readers, but I refined gold for more than nine years before I sold as much as a grain. My interest was not in making money, but in owning gold. I already had a good income and had enough money to cover my needs, which are small. I do not buy a new car because the neighbor does. I dictate the terms of my life, I do not allow his choices to influence mine.

When I started refining, it was illegal to do so without a federal license. Screw them, I said to myself. That sounds like way, way, way too much government control. I'll just figure this thing out on my own and refine, storing gold for my retirement.

By the time I started selling gold, I was well recognized as a gold refiner and had a strong following. All restrictions on processing and possessing gold were eliminated on Jan. 1, 1975, which allowed me to be vocal about my hobby-----a hobby that was virtually unheard of because of previous regulations. I was in the right place at the right time for a business to blossom, although that was never my intention.

Selling for spot was no big deal, a simple phone call to given customers and it was gone. The customer got a good deal because they bought for spot----which they, otherwise, were unable to do.

So then, the objective of each individual is what matters.

I have little patience with the guy that thinks he will stride into a situation, grab all the values and dump them in the lap of a refiner, making a killing in the process. These morons usually do little more than muddy the water for those that have good intentions. If any of the readers of this forum think they're going to skin a fat lamb by dealing in precious metals, they're in for the surprise of their lives. The precious metal market is exceedingly fickle. I sat watching the gold market for more than 20 years, with many of them with gold in the $300 arena. In those twenty years, I saw it run up to $500 and fall back, often well below the price of production.

You doubt my comment about a fickle market? How then would you account for the price of rhodium----which was over $10,000 not too long ago?

Bottom line? If you are interested in being a refiner, it is important to serve the needs of your primary customers. If they are people that deal with ingots, that's what you must provide. If you rely on a second or third party to provide them, your chance of survival is small---for you'll make little money, if any, and if you cheat the customer to insure profit you won't last long enough to make it worthwhile. One unhappy customer can do more damage to one's reputation than can be healed with hard effort and a prolonged period of time.

The choice is yours. Become a refiner, or find a different way to find entertainment. Or------simply stay the course and refine for your own pleasure, with no idea in mind of making profit. That way anything that comes from your activity can be looked upon as having made a dime.

An added thought; the idea of hitting garage sales, flea markets and all the other sources you can conjure is a waste of time. That's not to say you can't, and won't, find the odd bit of precious metal. You will, but you can't make it a living.

I snickered time and again as I talked with one of my customers, a prospector that had undying devotion. I accumulated more gold in two weeks than he did in a year, simply be refining for others for a percentage. There's nothing like going out looking for gold to put in focus the reason why it sells for the price it enjoys. It's damned hard to come by, be it via e scrap, where you put in a huge amount of labor, or by prospecting, which may never pay dividends. You have to use wisdom to make this thing work----with the niche market Lou spoke of the biggest part of success.

Harold

 

[Anonymous]

I am really new to this, and still learning the termanology. My idea is when you get ready to melt the gold, add a little extra to compinsate for the amount that is left in the crucible after you finish pouring so that you make sure that you have enough. Also, you could take your empty ingots, place them on a scale, and zero the scale with the ingots on it. Then pour the gold into the ingot until the scale reads 1oz. If you have 4 spaces on one ingot, then pour the gold in the first space until the scale reads 1oz, and then pour the gold into the second space until the scale reads 2oz(1oz in the first space and pouring the second ounce) and so on.
Hope this helps.

 

[Harold_V]

I am really new to this, and still learning the termanology.

You have far more than terminology to learn. You have yet to discover that the suggestions you provided

My idea is when you get ready to melt the gold, add a little extra to compinsate for the amount that is left in the crucible after you finish pouring so that you make sure that you have enough. Also, you could take your empty ingots, place them on a scale, and zero the scale with the ingots on it. Then pour the gold into the ingot until the scale reads 1oz. If you have 4 spaces on one ingot, then pour the gold in the first space until the scale reads 1oz, and then pour the gold into the second space until the scale reads 2oz(1oz in the first space and pouring the second ounce) and so on.

are worthless.

Yes, they make sense on paper, but in practice they do not, nor will they ever---not pouring by hand. If you are familiar with a grain of gold, and how small it is, and consider a grain equates to 1/480th of a troy ounce, and an ingot is weighed to 4 places, a tenth of a grain effects the weight of an ingot by .0010 ounce. You simply can not control the pour to that degree of precision, nor will gold cooperate with tipping miniscule amounts.

I'm not trying to be rude----I'm just trying to have you understand that you are dealing with infinitely small units, all of which are very important in the way of credibility. Ingots must weigh what they are marked, and establishing a desired weight is likely to be beyond your ability. You pretty much have to settle for random ingots unless you pour them heavy, then adjust their weight before die striking. That would create a uniform surface. The alternative is to roll gold to a specific thickness, punch a planchet, which would be adjusted for weight, then die struck. You would fail miserably at pouring ingots of a specific weight, although you will hit the occasional one. It happened for me, but rarely. It was not predictable in spite of considerable effort.

Harold

 

[Anonymous]

Harold
What about a two part mold like a sinker mold? But obviously shaped like a bar, Known volume, cut off sprew(not sure about the spelling).

Jim

 

[Harold_V]

What about a two part mold like a sinker mold? But obviously shaped like a bar, Known volume, cut off sprew(not sure about the spelling).

It won't work. As the gold solidifies, it must contract. It would pull the characteristic pipe in the form, leaving a cavity. When ingots are poured, heat is played on the surface to slow cooling, so the ingot cools from the bottom up, shrinking the top surface somewhat uniformly. That way an almost flat ingot can be achieved, with no pipe.

In a closed mold, the amount of shrink would relate to the temperature of the pour, so you'd get variations according to the temperature of the molten metal and/or the temperature of the mold. Further, controlling the amount of movement of the sprue cutter, closer or farther from the surface of the mold, would be cause for serious variations as well. Even bullets, cast in much softer lead, so they shear easier, aren't consistent (I used to cast my own bullets. Haven't hand loaded for years, but I still have the equipment). You also must hold the molten material in the sprue for a short interval while the lead freezes. You'd have more than a small amount of trouble doing that with gold, which will gladly solder to other metals, even under poor conditions.

You have to understand the complexity of trying to meter the metal for this to make sense. You're dealing with a substance, be it gold or silver, that isn't a constant, nor will it pour in small amounts. If you start a stream of molten gold that is able to pour over a lip, you'll get one hell of a lot more gold than you bargained for before you can cut off the stream. Remember-------what you're concerned with is no larger than the tip of a pin---it takes almost nothing to alter the weight. It is for that reason that you see my ingots marked randomly. I did the best I could, but could hit the desired weight only very infrequently.

The closest I could imagine you could come to success would be if you had a means of bottom pouring, and had a vessel that was covered with a very specific amount of borax. so the gold wouldn't stick, and would pour rapidly, coming out in one straight pour. It would be very important that none of the borax be discharged with the molten metal, thus the need for a specific amount. By that method, it's possible that none would remain behind. (Maybe!)

When pouring from a melting dish, when you start with a specific amount of gold, as the stream comes to an end, it generally leaves behind a miniscule amount of gold. Doesn't look like much, and it isn't, but when you weigh the ingot, what you had hoped to be a full ounce is short by enough to affect the weight in the third column. A tenth of a grain is a significant amount of gold when you're weighing an ingot, especially gold.

I can only assume that there is a way to pour exact amounts, but if it was easy, they wouldn't die strike small ingots, they'd pour them. Dies are killer expensive, but the expense pales in comparison to the effort that is required in pouring specific weights.

I'll gladly eat my words if anyone can provide evidence that I'm wrong. Otherwise, you're far better off to put your energy where it can make a difference. Don't spin your wheels on something that isn't important. There is nothing wrong with ingots that vary in weight-------you simply price them according to content. Were it not for the steak of perfectionism that has plagued me (having worked as a toolmaker), I'd have been ecstatic at the quality of my ingots. Only perfect is good enough when you're crazy, the way I am.

Harold

 

[goldsilverpro]

No one can pour exact weight ingots. If you look at some of the silver bars on the market, you'll see a ground area on one end. They make them slightly overweight and grind off a bit to hit exactly 10 oz, 100 oz, etc.

When I cast silver bars, I used two piece "book" molds made of graphite. One piece had the depressions and the sprue holes. The other piece was a flat plate. They were held together with c-clamps and you poured through the sprue holes. If the silver was poured right and if everything was at the right temperature, the gases were all expelled up through the sprue hole and the bars were mostly smooth and flawless. I found that smoking the molds resulted in the best appearance. The sprues were then sawed off. The bars were weighed and the weight, after rounding down, was stamped on the bars. For example - 10.17 tr.oz.

 

[lazersteve]

GSP and Harold (or anyone else),

Could you provide me some specifics on pouring a series of 10 ounce silver ingots. I have a furnace and two factory made iron molds.

I'm interested in details on temperatures of the mold (warm or hot), fluxing (if required), how to get a smooth finish on the ingot, and any other tips you may have.

I will be pouring a series of 10 ounce silver ingots in the next few weeks and it would be nice to have your advices to save me any gotchas you two have learned from your own experiences. I plan on posting a video of a pour or two once I have the process down pat.

Steve

 

[goldsilverpro]

Steve,

Since Harold used cast iron molds more that I did, he could probably give you the best advice. As I said, I always used the "book molds" for silver, but I can't remember where I bought them.

I know that, in an open mold, it will be more difficult to make attractive silver bars than gold ones. I would definitely smoke the molds with acetylene.

The top surface is the problem. To put a smooth surface on gold bars, they hold a wide spread out torch on the top surface, immediately after pouring, until the bar solidifies. It kept the surface molten for a longer period of time. A company I worked for used something similar to a propane brush burner. Of course, this was for big bars. The smaller bars are going to want to chill much faster.

The temperature is going to be critical, both on the melt and the mold. The hotter the silver, the more oxygen it will absorb and expel.

If you flux (borax), remove the slag with a carbon rod before you pour.

BTW, are you using a torch or a furnace? If a furnace, what style?

Graphite book molds are easy.

Practice! Practice! Play with it.

 

[lazersteve]

BTW, are you using a torch or a furnace? If a furnace, what style?

I have two small (9"x9"x"9) box furnaces with a 3/8" hole on top and a 3/8" peep hole in the front. They melt gold and silver very easily in an hour or less. I tried a few test pours with the silver in graphite and could not get a smooth surface. I did not use any flux at all and the mold was atop the furnace vent while the metal melted. The color of the silver was a brilliant white, but the surface was pocked with air bubbles.

I have casting gold bars down with the furnace, they cast so much easier when the entire dish is white hot. I will never use the torch to cast gold again. The finish on my gold bars is beautiful. I cast them into a ingot shaped graphite mold that has been well sooted that sits atop the furnace vent hole while the metal comes up to temperature.

I tried to add a block of graphite in the interior of the furnace as per Loewen's book (pg 136), to keep oxygen down and it helped on the melt, but when cast the bar quickly absorbed oxygen. He mentioned placing the graphite (carbon) directly in the crucible with the silver, but I am hesitant to do that since I've spent so much energy purifying the silver. Perhaps I can try a lower temperature on the melt?

I was also hoping that I may be able to insulate the surface of the ingot from the O2 with some sort of flux coating that could easily be removed once the ingot cools. I will look at making a graphite book mold as I have lots of hard graphite blocks.

Thanks GSP,

Steve