user 72646
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She talks about this in her book
https://dokumen.tips/documents/testing-precious-metals-cm-hoke.html
https://dokumen.tips/documents/testing-precious-metals-cm-hoke.html
Quartz Gold?
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We have talked about a lot in this thread, so what is "this" in this post.
If you comment or reply to a post so press reply on that post and there will be autogenerated a quote so we see who you are adressing.
Just like I did here.
kurtak
Well-known member
NO !!!
At least not if you are smelting for the collection of PMs on normal/larger smelting batches as you have no real way of getting rid of the lead other then cupelling (which of course is an option - just not the best option IMO)
Lead as a collector is "primarily" used for doing fire assays (a VERY SMALL smelt) so it is one thing to cupel away the SMALL lead button of a fire assay smelt --- it is an entirely different thing to have to get rid of the lead (used as collector metal) of a normal/larger smelt
The ONLY way I would ever use lead as a collector metal in an actual (larger) smelt is if the material being smelted had a lot of lead in it to start with
Kurt
kurtak
Well-known member
If you are smelting nothing but Ag/Pd capacitors then silver is you best collector metal as it takes much less nitric (like 4 times less) to process the Ag/Pd smelt dore metal then if you use copper as your collector
Once you have your Ag/Pd dore you have two options
1) Dissolve the Ag/Pd dore in nitric - drop the Ag from solution as AgCl - wash (well) the dissolved Pd out of the AgCl - reduce/recover the Pd from solution by method of your choice (cementing - DMG - formic - etc. etc.)
2) run the Ag/Pd dore in your silver cell (if silver content is high enough) - however - keep in mind that if you run it in a silver cell - while "some" of the Pd stays in the slimes - "some" of it also ends up in the electrolyte after running the cell - so you have Pd that then needs to be recovered from both the slims and the electrolyte
Now you might ask - why not just leach the Ag/Pd out of MLCCs in the first place & then follow option (1) to recover the Ag & Pd
Because when you leach MLCCs you end up with (mostly) ULTRA FINE ceramic clay like MUD which is not just next to impossible - but in fact impossible to get all of the Ag/Pd washed out of that mud
Because the mud is like clay it is impossible to filter - even with vacuum
If you try to wash/settle it (the solution) out of the ceramic "mud" - it will take DAYS & HUDGE amounts of water to get all the Ag/Pd washed out & that is because ----
1) some of the ULTRA FINE ceramic particles are so fine they take a day (even 2 or 3) to fully settle - so you are looking at 1 or 2 days of settling "for each" wash
2) each wash gives you a "diminishing" return of the Ag/Pd - which means "some" of the Ag/Pd is "always" left behind in the mud - meaning - even after 5 - 6 - 7 washes - there will still be "some" Ag/Pd left in the mud (proven by assays of the mud after washes) you just can not get all the Ag/Pd out of the mud - so how much Ag/Pd you want to leave in the mud depends on how much washing you want to do - you need to wash "at least" 4 - 5 times - at only 3 washes you will likely leave 15 -20% of the Ag/Pd in the mud
3) Then after all that washing you end up with VERY DILUTED Ag/Pd solution - so diluted that you are then best served by the need to evaporate the solution down in order to get good & or effective recovery of the Ag - then the Pd from solution
In other words - without evaporation - when you drop the AgCl - it will likely come down so ULTRA FINE it will likely take a day if not 2 or 3 to settle - then you still need to wash the Pd out of the AgCl - making the Pd solution even more dilute
Let me put it this way - the one & ONLY time I leached MLCCs was the first time I tried to process them (about a pound of them)
What I learned was that leaching is such a pain in the butt --- that I will NEVER do it again - I will smelt them EVERY TIME
Kurt
kurtak
Well-known member
Per the bold print - you need to add more
The "general" rule when smelting - in order to get good collection of the metals in the smelt - so that the metal settles in the bottom of the cone mold & separated from the slag is that you want around 30% of your "smelt load" to be metal
The other "general" rule is that you want "at least" twice as much flux as material you are smelting
The "smelt load" is the combination of - the material you are smelting - plus the flux - plus the collector metal - so to make the smelt load -------
Example; - if you have 100 grams MLCCs (which has "some" metal in it) - to that you want to add (or start with) 200 grams flux = 300 grams MLCCS/flux - so if you add 100 grams silver = 400 grams smelt load = a know 25% metal (the added silver) plus the metal in the MLCCs would get you "close to the 30% wanted metal in the smelt load or good collection/separation
I would likely up my added silver in the above to 125 grams - just for insurance of good collection/separation
Kurt
Would this also be a good rule for the thin ceramic resistor arrays that also contain palladium?
I do not believe resistors have PMs, at least not western style.
I am a new home/hobby refiner, well newish.
About 4 years ago, I watched a couple of YouTube videos on gold refining. I thought to myself this would be interesting to try. I got ahold of a couple old computers, laptops and cell phones and plunged right in with my vast and newly acquired youtube knowledge. Like most youtube educated beginning wanna be refiners, I failed fantastically!
I have always been a person who has taken failures as reality checks and self education tools.
I decided to put the chemicals and my own impatience on the shelf and do a little bit of research. That is when I found this forum.
3 years of reading through this forum (like I said this is a hobby, wife, life, and job have their priorities) and reading Hoke's book has taught me a lot. My research taught me things I didn't consider before, like safety and waste management. It also taught me that I still have a lot to learn.
I have recently pulled the chemicals off the shelf and am working on fefining silver. I am still making some mistakes and finding new questions to research in these forums. I originally came here today to find out why my silver chloride precipitate was a fine powder instead of cottage cheese.
Thank you Kurt for unknowingly answering my question.
The main point to my rambling is this:
If you are new to refining or not quite so new. Take the time to listen to the expertise offered in this forum. Take the time to research your questions before posting your questions. Trust me, it's more fulfilling that way. In my opinion, if you are too impatient to do research then you are too impatient to attempt doing anything as potentially hazardous as precious metal refining.
About 4 years ago, I watched a couple of YouTube videos on gold refining. I thought to myself this would be interesting to try. I got ahold of a couple old computers, laptops and cell phones and plunged right in with my vast and newly acquired youtube knowledge. Like most youtube educated beginning wanna be refiners, I failed fantastically!
I have always been a person who has taken failures as reality checks and self education tools.
I decided to put the chemicals and my own impatience on the shelf and do a little bit of research. That is when I found this forum.
3 years of reading through this forum (like I said this is a hobby, wife, life, and job have their priorities) and reading Hoke's book has taught me a lot. My research taught me things I didn't consider before, like safety and waste management. It also taught me that I still have a lot to learn.
I have recently pulled the chemicals off the shelf and am working on fefining silver. I am still making some mistakes and finding new questions to research in these forums. I originally came here today to find out why my silver chloride precipitate was a fine powder instead of cottage cheese.
Thank you Kurt for unknowingly answering my question.
The main point to my rambling is this:
If you are new to refining or not quite so new. Take the time to listen to the expertise offered in this forum. Take the time to research your questions before posting your questions. Trust me, it's more fulfilling that way. In my opinion, if you are too impatient to do research then you are too impatient to attempt doing anything as potentially hazardous as precious metal refining.
user 72646
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Hey
Ive been doing a bunch of research, and it looks like I have some dirty gold powder after processing some electronic parts? kept the AP for reuse..?? 2.5ltr of solution, contained and safe.
The next stage is refining (and for the record i have not been near nitric acid, for saftey reasons and lack of experience).. Thus far I have got to gold powder albeit low quality..... Is that progression?
The scariest part about nitric acid is the cost in small quantities. It is no worse to work with than hydrochloric acid. Caution with study and understanding helps, but patience is the real key. Know what to expect before trying something else. Even now, before I start to process something I have a plan laid out, step by step with expected results and even points where things may go wrong and how to deal with it. It sounds like a lot of trouble but by avoiding mistakes it is actually time saving. After 10 or so years of reading this forum I can come here everyday, even several times a day, and still learn new things. It is what makes this so interesting for me.
user 72646
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- Sep 20, 2023
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Yo, Shark
Planning is key..
The dark AP previously discussed is getting lighter with bubbler.. Your advice works as per.
I did go for a basic plan
Dissolve gold and dislodge with hcl bleach then hcl peroxide, as advised.
Now looks like I have some foils and gold in filter
The Ap is sweet and bubbling. away on stubborn items.
There is a grey paste which has been filtered away I will not process this batch of lead/base metal filters, only yellow golden as pictured.
Will probably have to clean the foils up as they are mixed with sand and some residual material.
MM
Planning is key..
The dark AP previously discussed is getting lighter with bubbler.. Your advice works as per.
I did go for a basic plan
Dissolve gold and dislodge with hcl bleach then hcl peroxide, as advised.
Now looks like I have some foils and gold in filter
The Ap is sweet and bubbling. away on stubborn items.
There is a grey paste which has been filtered away I will not process this batch of lead/base metal filters, only yellow golden as pictured.
Will probably have to clean the foils up as they are mixed with sand and some residual material.
MM
Attachments
I think you need to reread the advice given.
No one has recommended HCl Bleach first.
That is used to dissolve the Gold.
Nothing else.
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