Questions about AP

[lazersteve]

AP can be reused also.

Concentrated Sulfuric acid is $25 a gallon retail from ACE hardware HCl is $5 a gallon retail at Lowes, 3% peroxide is $1 a quart at Walmart. An aquarium bubbler is $5-$10 at Walmart for fast stripping and rejuvenation.

AP is way safer than working with concentrated sulfuric acid, especially when the cell is hot.

The cell needs constant attention, AP is a 'set it and forget it' method.

I still use the cell for some items, but it's not my main work horse.

Steve

 

[Barren Realms 007]

The AP really is so much easier on some things. I have 80lbs of fingers in a 15 gal barrel running now. And even in the cold weather they have gone like gang busters. I have another 6 lbs of gold lids but it would take too much time to run them in the cell so when I get ready I will just run them in a batch of Poor mans and polish them off real quick. You have to look at the time you will have invested on stuff and what you have coming down the pike.

 

[lasereyes]

AP can be reused also.

Concentrated Sulfuric acid is $25 a gallon retail from ACE hardware HCl is $5 a gallon retail at Lowes, 3% peroxide is $1 a quart at Walmart. An aquarium bubbler is $5-$10 at Walmart for fast stripping and rejuvenation.

AP is way safe than working with concentrated sulfuric acid, especially when the cell is hot.

The cell needs constant attention, AP is a 'set it and forget it' method.

I still use the cell for some items, but it's not my main work horse.

Steve

That makes sense. Have you ever tried cooling a cell in a an ice water slurry? Also I was wondering, is a 12 volt 6 amp battery charger adequate for the type of cell described on your site?

 

[Oz]

Concentrated sulfuric acid in a glass container resting in water is an accident waiting to happen. If they mixed suddenly you would have a spitting nasty mess.

 

[lasereyes]

Concentrated sulfuric acid in a glass container resting in water is an accident waiting to happen. If they mixed suddenly you would have a spitting nasty mess.

If the glass containing the sulfuring acid breaks or spills, your going to have a problem either way. It seems safe as long as your careful, just don't use glycerin:

http://www.nbcchicago.com/news/local-beat/Chemical-Explosion-Reported-on-West-Side-Chicago.html

 

[Oz]

You are right, concentrated sulfuric acid is dangerous. This is what we have been telling you. Perhaps you should stay away from it until you really understand the hazards. However if you do use it, it is a good idea to have your container surrounded by a catchment. Do not make things purposely more hazardous by adding the problem of water.

 

[lasereyes]

You are right, concentrated sulfuric acid is dangerous. This is what we have been telling you. Perhaps you should stay away from it until you really understand the hazards. However if you do use it, it is a good idea to have your container surrounded by a catchment. Do not make things purposely more hazardous by adding the problem of water.

I plan on setting up a electrolytic cell soon, and I've already handled the concentrated sulfuric acid. I do have a small amount of acid-resistant fibre which I plan on surrounding the upper part of the dish with so that the acid won't come into contact with the water.

 

[stihl88]

Please don't underestimate the 98% Sulphuric, Ive been using my new cell for the past few days and i am just amazed at the small amount it takes to spit the stuff everywhere, It's lethal stuff.

MUSTS - Wear Eye protection
- Wear Gloves

Make sure you have a tall jug of water that has Baking Soda added, once you strip the part just drop it in the jug and it will be neutralized, try and drip the Sulphuric from the part a few times otherwise if you stick a stripped component or a whole basket of stripped components in the Jug you will get a whole lot of spitting.
Ive got a pull-out filter in my was jug so i can shake the stripped parts and remove them with ease at a later date.

As far as cooling > I thought about this and i would make a copper tube coil style cooler and have the Cell sitting on top of the coil, the coil would be connected to a pump which in turn is sitting a few feet away which is full of iced water.

 

[lasereyes]

Please don't underestimate the 98% Sulphuric, Ive been using my new cell for the past few days and i am just amazed at the small amount it takes to spit the stuff everywhere, It's lethal stuff.

MUSTS - Wear Eye protection
- Wear Gloves

Make sure you have a tall jug of water that has Baking Soda added, once you strip the part just drop it in the jug and it will be neutralized, try and drip the Sulphuric from the part a few times otherwise if you stick a stripped component or a whole basket of stripped components in the Jug you will get a whole lot of spitting.
Ive got a pull-out filter in my was jug so i can shake the stripped parts and remove them with ease at a later date.

As far as cooling > I thought about this and i would make a copper tube coil style cooler and have the Cell sitting on top of the coil, the coil would be connected to a pump which in turn is sitting a few feet away which is full of iced water.

A coil may not make enough contact with the glass to cool the cell sufficiently, but perhaps you could make some sort of heat sink attached to the cell that the coil could run through.

 

[Oz]

You are overconfident in something I fear you have little experience with. I still suggest using a dry secondary catchment basin for your cell and to keep water away.

Lasereyes, you have not even run a cell before and you are designing cooling systems that could not only be dangerous but may also prove unnecessary depending on how you use your cell. I worry about others following and trying to impliment some of your ideas.

My primary purpose in posting on this forum is to keep everyone safe first and foremost. You need to start off small and safe to minimize the risks in any process in chemistry until you understand what to expect, even then scaling up can cause unexpected problems and risks. You are presumably on this forum to learn refining from people that do this and know more than you do about it. Listen to them instead of idle speculation.

You started off in this thread having solid opinions as to the sulfuric cell being superior to AP when you have never built a sulfuric cell and your comments lead me to believe you have not done the AP process either. I have intentionally refrained from answering your earlier questions as to amperage and voltage as you were talking about an “ice water slurry” surrounding your concentrated sulfuric acid.

Stihl88 gave you warnings on this as well as some safety precautions (thanks stihl88). I would never work with my sulfuric stripping cells without neutralizing agents at hand, goggles, face shield, and gloves. Even when you see no spitting from a cell, you more often than not find your clothes with many fine holes from micro droplets that occur. This is even with a properly operating cell mind you, not a minor or heaven forbid major failure. Frankly I have been considering installing a shower stall in my lab if I do much more with sulfuric acid especially hot (strong bases can be worse) so if the worst happens I can get under running water to minimize the damage as I am stripping off my clothes and protective gear. Just imagine even a 5 liter beaker breaking or spilling down your front side and soaking your clothes and you can see the value in this additional piece of lab equipment.

I have built several different styles of these cells, each with their own purpose as to the material or quantity being stripped. They range from 1 liter to 15 gallons in concentrated sulfuric acid capacity and can strip up to 5 lbs at a time. Some materials are best recovered in a cell like this, many are not. Of those materials best suited to this, many need to be handled differently than others do.

Anything I would have said to you about operating these cells would have only encouraged you to move forward incorporating some unsafe ideas. I am simply unwilling to encourage someone who will not listen to safety concerns first. Steve that posted above probably knows more about these cells than I do. While I cannot speak for him, I would be surprised if he wished to teach you about them if you do not put safety first and chose to ignore any of his thoughts on safty as well. You will find that those here that have the most to teach will feel the same way.

The primary reason for my long reply is that I would not wish someone new here to read your ideas thinking them without risks. To be fair, some of this coming from me is not just about you. I have become irritated of late by people coming here to learn from others with experience, only to disregard the advice given and move forward without caution. Others are beset with gold fever, that do not wish to spend the time in order to learn how to do this safely and exercise sound ecological practices while refining.

As long as I am here I will not help someone that does not put safety first, or be responsible for the proper treatment of their wastes.

Convince the knowledgeable members here in your sincerity to listen to what they advise and your desire to be safe and responsible, and there is no end to the knowledge and education you can receive here.

 

[nickvc]

A well thought out and honest appraisal of the dangers of trying to re design the wheel without the basic understanding of it's application.
Please take Ozs warning seriously, none of us on the forum want anyone hurt or worse and certainly don't want to be part of the cause. Learn the basics and get them down pat before trying to move into experimentation where dangerous and unexpected reactions can easily occur.
We have members of different ages,abilities and nationalities and safe practice must be our first priority and for all our members to understand the dangers of the chemicals and processes we all use and even more importantly to know when to stop and ask for guidance and then to listen to those who know exactly what to do.... or not to do!

 

[Harold_V]

Concentrated sulfuric acid in a glass container resting in water is an accident waiting to happen. If they mixed suddenly you would have a spitting nasty mess.

In '75, I was flown to New Mexico to inspect a large stripping cell that was in use by the government. They used a 300 amp rectifier for stripping, using large copper and/or brass baskets. Because of the amperage, and the fact that the cell was operated on a continual basis, it was water cooled. Inner jacket was taller than the water cooling jacket by a few inches. They reported no issues with the water cooling jacket. It's important to keep the temperature low, to prevent dissolution of base metals.

Harold

 

[Oz]

I was not saying it cannot be done in a professional lab by experienced personnel that understand the dangers involved. But often we have members coming here new that do not know the differences between the Pyrex glasses or are using a coffee carafe, let alone the dangers of concentrated sulfuric acid and water.

At 300 amps that was a far larger volume of concentrated sulfuric acid by far than I have ever dealt with. Out of curiosity I have to ask as to the material they chose for their vessel. With those volumes (no hobby stuff there) I would have used iron to keep the acid separate from the water in order to minimize or avoid a possible fracture of the containment vessel. I sure would not want to be present for a failure!

I stand by my statements that too many on the forum are too new in order to make sound judgments as to the possible consequences of trying to water cool sulfuric acid stripping cells.

 

[lasereyes]

I was not saying it cannot be done in a professional lab by experienced personnel that understand the dangers involved. But often we have members coming here new that do not know the differences between the Pyrex glasses or are using a coffee carafe, let alone the dangers of concentrated sulfuric acid and water.

At 300 amps that was a far larger volume of concentrated sulfuric acid by far than I have ever dealt with. Out of curiosity I have to ask as to the material they chose for their vessel. With those volumes (no hobby stuff there) I would have used iron to keep the acid separate from the water in order to minimize or avoid a possible fracture of the containment vessel. I sure would not want to be present for a failure!

I stand by my statements that too many on the forum are too new in order to make sound judgments as to the possible consequences of trying to water cool sulfuric acid stripping cells.

Personally my educational background includes electrochemistry so I trust my own judgement.

 

[stihl88]

Personally my educational background includes electrochemistry so I trust my own judgement.

Ahhh.... Then you should understand that having a water bath under your Cell is probably one of the most ludicrous things you could do with a Stripping Cell.

- You seem to be quite contempt on this subject and it seems as though you have not quite grasped the dangers that others here have pointed out to you here.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Personally my educational background includes electrochemistry so I trust my own judgement.

Ahhh.... Then you should understand that having a water bath under your Cell is probably one of the most ludicrous things you could do with a Stripping Cell.

- You seem to be quite contempt on this subject and it seems as though you have not quite grasped the dangers that others here have pointed out to you here.

When it is warm outside I use an ice bath under my cell. Now I have worked with sulpuric for over 25 years so stihl88 don't put everyone in the same boat. Some people have the experience to deal with this but not everyone.

 

[stihl88]

Barren, as an experienced person you should know that if you get a break in your cell and it ends up dumping your lot of acid and it ends up in the water bath below then you've got a monster on your hands and your 25 years XP ain't going to mean much except for "evacuate the area", i hope.

Please post pictures of you water cooled design, this will tell me which boat to put you on, I will put you in the same boat with lasereyes if your using the same water/ice cooled bath that lasereyes is referring to :mrgreen:

 

[lasereyes]

Perhaps instead of ice water one could use refrigerated mineral oil. It probably does not react with sulfuric acid.

 

[lasereyes]

Barren, as an experienced person you should know that if you get a break in your cell and it ends up dumping your lot of acid and it ends up in the water bath below then you've got a monster on your hands and your 25 years XP ain't going to mean much except for "evacuate the area", i hope.

Please post pictures of you water cooled design, this will tell me which boat to put you on, I will put you in the same boat with lasereyes if your using the same water/ice cooled bath that lasereyes is referring to :mrgreen:

Constructive criticism is helpful, but I don't need to be "put on a boat".

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Barren, as an experienced person you should know that if you get a break in your cell and it ends up dumping your lot of acid and it ends up in the water bath below then you've got a monster on your hands and your 25 years XP ain't going to mean much except for "evacuate the area", i hope.

Please post pictures of you water cooled design, this will tell me which boat to put you on, I will put you in the same boat with lasereyes if your using the same water/ice cooled bath that lasereyes is referring to :mrgreen:

I don't use a glass container when I do this I use a platsic bowl inside of a plastic bowl. It is true that you can have a violent reaction when the 2 items come in contact with each other but that is mostly at elevated temperatures. When it is cold you have less of a chance of this happening.

I don't have any pictures right now as the parts I use for my cell are being used for other purposes right now in my refining setup.