pgmgal said:
We tried Northern Refineries for rhodium and platinum that had been inquarted with copper. Starting with about 99.5-99.9 sponge in an old induction furnace. We had some nice sized dore bars. One was 800g (about 50% copper).
We did it in copper because one potential buyer said they prefer it in copper rather than silver as it is much easier to remove. We tested the removal process and that worked. The process was from AE Smiths book.
Who told you your material was that pure? What assay certificates do you have to back that up? It's easy enough for anyone to dig some crap out of the ground and call it platinum, but that doesn't make it platinum, let alone rhodium!
Most cogent to me is that I cannot see why anyone would want to tamper with sponge of that quality and mess it up with copper. Why?! I can't see who would prefer to have it in copper when they can have it practically pure! In my opinion, your first mistake was not sending it out to be parted professionally. If you guys are producing in such quantity, you might want to consider a refiner-broker, someone who refines for a fee or percentage and then sells it on the market for you, rather than those sometimes crooked folk that buy it outright. Anyway, mixed Pt and Rh is easily separated by those versed in the art.
The guy on the phone sounded exictied about it, but they took about 8 weeks, lots of calls and finaly said it was all base metal, mostly iron. We had sent it registered, they returned it regular post.
Sadly, I know how those people might feel when they get a sample that's been talked up and there's not a darn thing in it. Or worse, you spend weeks dealing with an inferior sample only to know that it was sampled incorrectly by the client (voiding the assay!). I've had to break the ''bad news'' many, many times.
The person who did the induction furnace work on these set up the platinum refinery of a large well-known refinery in his 40+ year career! We know we got the stuff. The rhodium had the characteristic gas bubbles, for one! (pict attached).
If he set up a platinum refinery, he should have quite a bit of expertise in separating platinum from rhodium, and starting his own refinery. I ask for this clarification: your ''rhodium'' button with the duck trails, is that alloyed with copper, or is this before inquartation? Also, what type of crucible did you melt this in? I don't get bubbles like that when I melt rhodium. I posted some pics of a few troy ounces that I sold a couple months ago over in the Gallery section.
We are quite sure no one will allow anyone in the U.S. to produce PGMs. If anyone has succcessfully sold PGMs to a US buyer, let us know please even if you don't want to share who the buyer is!
I've sold PGMs to several different US and international buyers many of which you would have great familiarity with since you're in the biz. As for the conspiracy theory stuff, sadly, we've heard it here before and I personally don't believe any of it. If there's money to be made in your material, then there's somebody that wants to make money on it, conspiracies be damned. Probably the only conspiracy involved would be to make more money off of you. I think the general reason why most people in the refining business don't want anything to do with US (I assume your stuff comes from a mine??) production of PGMs is because anyone claiming they have material which came from a US-native platinum ore generally isn't platinum. This isn't Canada, it isn't the Urals, and it's not South Africa. We don't have much platinum here. As much as I'd love to have crates of sperrylite or telluride coming through my door, it just doesn't happen (I wish it did!!).
Another mining friend in another country told me to take them to a Canadian assayer and not tell them where I got them (as he thought they were too big and would arose ire from the powers that be).
I should probably mention that I now have a "don't ask, don't tell" policy on material that I charge fees on. I can't speak for other people that do refining or assaying, but generally it's good practice because it eliminates any bias. So, don't run your mouth about where it came from unless they ask. In my case, wouldn't care where the hell you got your legitimate Pt stuff from, and thus I have no incentive to tell you this or that. People can talk all they want on the phone, but now I usually listen to when they want it back, when the check is out, and what I'm testing for and how. The only instances I ask about received material is if a.) has toxic metals or radioactivity, b.) I find some toxic metals and/or radioactivity, c.) I suspect it's stolen or some sort of ill-gotten gain, d.) the client is one I work with on improving his process and it's imperative I know what he/she is doing and why so it can be improved. I used to listen to how people obtained the material, but I've decided upon a policy of impartiality.
Hm, I am saying 'we', but I am the 'over-the-shoulder' PGMgal at the moment, slowly absorbing the chemistry. :wink:
We had the same thing with AAA Metals, but had only sent them a sliver of the same platinum. Previously, we had some concentrate that would be about 80% platinum tested by David Fell. They did an XRF and reported it was iron. (Which is so funny as the orignial ore itself was only 15-20% iron!) Took our money for assaying, then told us they didn't refine platinum any longer because of the cost they would have to incur to deal with environmental issues in California. Yet their ads still say they do platinum. go figure.
I don't understand how these people advertise that they refine PGMs?? And no one knows how to assay it. We are sending either high grade dore bars or sponge and the ICP they all like to do will only pick up 10,000ppb!
That's still 10 ppm! Just get some good ion exchange resin in your effluent stream heheh. Anyway, XRF is a fickle mistress--if the person doesn't know what they're doing, or if they really know what they're doing but don't want to pay you, they can easily botch the test and the results. It's not as point-and-shoot as AA or ICP technologies. XRF/XFS-EDX should be done by someone you trust, preferably when they have no vested interest. You've been warned.
So I am looking for a certified assayer who either knows how to do ICPs properly for finished metal and high grade sponge and/or knows how to chemically test it. (It is all in AE Smiths 2nd Ed. for goodness sake!)
Has anyone used www.aaassaylabs.com for PGM assays? They sound like they know what they are doing.
Thanks,
Go with Ledoux and Company. I've been using them for the past 6 months now on various things. I am very happy with them. They are expensive (you'll spend a thousand on a PGM assay) but they are ISO certified and have other comforting letters behind and in front of their names. Plus they're professional and they don't treat me like an ***** on the phone, even though I make no mention of knowing just a little of the analytical side of things
Getting my material assayed by a third party is validation on my part and keeps me striving for quality and also adapting processes and making sure that I'm using the best possible protocol.
As for aaassaylabs.com, well they claim they're the best (don't we all?). I've never used them, but their equipment in the photos doesn't look that new and shiny despite them harping on "Many labs, using improper and inferior ICP's often report values which are not accurate---are underestimated. They use outdated ICP's, most of which were never designed or appropriate for measuring precious metals. "
Not saying that their equipment doesn't do the job. I've only used the newer, fancy ones
. ICPAES is the way to go for PGMs in my opinion, but there are various fire assay techniques that work as well.
They have attractive prices on assays. Also, for any of you that gripe (I know at least one person is here) about how much I charge for consulting services, do take a look at their rates! Granted they deal with mining more than refining, but it's not cheap!
Well, hope that helps.
I'd like to see some more photos and more descriptions of just what exactly you're doing.
My best advice to give you is to take a step back and consider that maybe it's not the refineries or the assay houses fleecing you. Perhaps it is you being dishonest with yourself on what you have. The proof is in the pudding, and the best way to determine if you're dreaming or really in for that new sports car and early retirement is to dissolve up your material and follow all the usual methods. If you recover what you're supposed to, then you've got something.
If it all dissolves up and you get a yellow orange solution that has a weak or nonexistent stannous, well, nice work, you've got that iron that AAA Metals was talking about. Good luck, I hope you find the canary.
Lou
