refining white gold

[butcher]

:lol:
Already in Hokes.

 

[solar_plasma]

I know, but you have just concentrated some goldnuggets into a few lines. I have read half the book and half of Ammen now, 4 month of reading in the forum, but nevertheless I got not aware of, that plain HCl would dissolve Pd fairly easy, which is casting a new light on the preparation of e-scrap for me.

edit: In the case of smd ceramic capacitors, that would explain, why Pd will dissolve, if you wait too long - when all basemetals are dissolved, Pd cannot cement back anymore and won't stay in the solids.

 

[au-artifax]

I can only discribe dealing with PGMs like flying vs. driving... it is so three dimensional. That was a good succinct rundown on everything one can do and choices nr must make.

I need to rememer though, so keep reminding me, always keep my sights on what I was going after in the beginning. It seems do easy to go chasing after that "little challenge" we run into along the way. I think having a mixed stockpot is fine....do long as it doesn't keep making so much noise ... if you get my drift.

Here is a serious question/concern I have:

Does it matter if we keep our stock pots either base or acid? I can see how the tendency is for the pot to be an acidic slurry of chloride compounds. Does anyone think there would be some benefit to keeping the stock pot base with hydroxide additions....or anything to help get metal compounds closer to where we want them to be prior to refining? I haven't read anything regarding this, so does anyone have any experiences that might be pertinent?

Thanks in advance.

Update: the previous response was so helpful. As I walked around pondering how NOT to see my values literally go up WITH the smoke, visiting stores to brainstorm a vessel or container that would trap values and let the incinerated garbage float away, I was puting off incinerating my powders. Knowing now about the addition of NaOH to keep values from volatilizing eith the chlorides is gold in itself. Thanks!!!

 

[Geo]

you should read Hoke's book and learn how to use and maintain a stockpot. it should be acidic. adding sodium hydroxide will cause ALL metal to precipitate, even base metal. you want the base metal to stay in solution when you cement values out with copper. if you raise the PH too high, you will just be mixing all the metal back together.

 

[Palladium]

Metals that won't normally dissolve into solution will do so when alloyed with other metals. Inquarting is an example of this.

 

[au-artifax]

I did read Hoke's, but there is so much information in there that a lot of it doesn't sink in until you experience it. Even though she takes you through the familiarization steps and practices, other things don't stick because there is no prior knowledge or experience for the brain to reference it.

For now though, And I don't have the experiences to bring back from memory, after roasting my powder the glassware is coated with yellow powder and it stinks like burnt gunpowder used to with my black powder shotgun. I take it that is sulfur from the SMB. Where in the process do we normally rid the gold of the sulfur it attached to. Am I missing something? I can't seem to find anywhere in Hokes that says where the sulfur ends up. I don't want to throw in another metal compound when I am trying to refine the gold.

Or is the sulfur I am seeing normal AMD it usually ends up in the flux?

And thanks Geo and Palladium for your advice. I will keep re-reading and sooner or later it will click for me as it has for you. And thanks for your patience...you guys are great!

 

[Geo]

what you are smelling is sulfur dioxide gas (SO2) gassing off from your solution. the sodium metabisulfite you add decomposes into salt and SO2 gas. the gas is what reduces the gold metal from solution. the salt is water soluble and will be removed with water rinses. WARNING : avoid inhaling SO2!

from wiki : Inhalation
Inhaling sulfur dioxide is associated with increased respiratory symptoms and disease, difficulty in breathing, and premature death.[22] In 2008, the American Conference of Governmental Industrial Hygienists reduced the short-term exposure limit from 5 ppm to 0.25 ppm. The OSHA PEL is currently set at 5 ppm (13 mg/m3) time weighted average. NIOSH has set the IDLH at 100 ppm.

 

[Palladium]

I seen a guy lean over a vessel and get a lung full of So2 gas on time. He laid on the floor kicking like a cock roach and turning blue in the face for about 5 mins. Cl gas ain't nothing to mess with either. You will taste both for some time to follow.

 

[solar_plasma]

SO2 is like a fist punch. You know immediately, it's bad. Cl in contrast is more devious, it smells even good and fresh the first seconds. NOx - I've always been lucky and cautious enough not to try a nose of it or at least more than traces....and after what I've read in this forum, I am even more cautious today.

powder shotgun

sounds more like a blend of SO2, H2S and/or NOx, SO2 alone smells not exactly like gunpowder, neither it is black powder, cellulose nitrate or both. Though I would expect SO2 AND NOx from your solution.

Black powder gives a reaction, that will form K2S for a short time, which, if traces go with the smoke, forms H2S with humidity.

And if you put organics like a piece of wood into a small probe of melted KNO3, there will also form some NOx.

 

[butcher]

"After roasting my powder the glassware is coated with yellow powder and it stinks like burnt gunpowder"

It could be sulfur reduced to the yellow powder, if you have a powder of yellow sulfur after you roasted your powders, you did not complete the roasting process, sulfur will need the powders to be glowing red hot, and the crushed powders stirred and exposed to air, keeping the metal powders glowing red for as long as it takes to burn off previous acids, salts or chemicals like sulfur, which will be one of the last things to burn off of the metals powders as gases of SO2 and SO3.

 

[steyr223]

And still i am not recognized

Ok maybe with all this talk about gun powder
and sulfur dioxide gas you guys,

"chemists and all"

missed something.

or
and i do apologise if i am the One. missing something

but

Didn't he say. POTASSIUM CHLORATE
I mean your talking about roasting, incinerating
and volatility of metals

shouldn't something be said as for potsssium
chlorate can be highly explosive

Now you all start talking about sulfer (HOLY
TOLITO BATMAN)


With my limited knowledge on this subject
i dare say another word as i might give the
future newbe a little more info that we all
try to protect to keep ourself safe

maybe someone with a better vocabulary can
tell the op these dangers better than i can

thanks steyr223 rob

 

[solar_plasma]

chlorate? guess I have to read the thread again....

chlorate won't stay being chlorate in this mix, further chlorate needs something reducing (or a whole lotta energy) to get instable, but even if - it won't be enough to blow the room (since new processes always have to be tried in small amounts first, and ofcourse he has safety goggles on, when working with AR etc.

But ofcourse, chlorate although in small quantities is everything else then harmless. -personally, I would never use it in amounts more than 1 g, but thats because this is the amount, I am allowed to use it for sure.

 

[steyr223]

they solar
if you say it wont stay a chlorate in our mix
than i would have to believe you as i know from
reading your posts you are an info junkie.
I myself do not have the kknowledge

but

i beg to differ on rest

pottasium chlorate mixed with a certain powder, and
it makes little difference on the proportions, is not
unstable as you said
IT is extremely SENSITIVE, in fact many have lost
fingers while mixing to hard

a pinch (1/4 gram )on the garauge floor struck lightly
with a hammer will crack the cement and take the
hammer out of your hand

this mix depending on ignition can be classed as a low
explosive not just a trapped propellent

steyr223 rob

 

[solar_plasma]

pottasium chlorate mixed with a certain powder

This is absolutely right. With certain materials it is very unstable and many people have lost more than a finger while mixing, depending on the quantity.

Just don't mix it with anything, unless you know, what you are going to do and you know, it is safe!

When it is used properly for precipitation (again, know what and why before) it will react with some PGM ions, then it isn't chlorate anymore - that's what I meant. Nevertheless. you are right, chlorates can be extremely dangerous and should never be blended with anything, unless you exactly know the process. And ensure, it is allowed to you in your country. For example in my country it is very restricted, so personally I would only use it for lawful and legal educational purposes (which implicates very small amounts) in the school lab.

 

[steyr223]

hey soloar
agreed

in the usa.back in 1979 or around that year i was
at the hight of my experimenting with such mixes
along with many others

(no terrorist...i ment no government activity back then)

i remember the day i was going to buy my first
sample of potassium chlorate,.i was so disappointed
they would only sell 3 1/2 grams max due to restrictions

i called 15 places and got a.hold of a place in my
city very close called "chemlab"
they said we got what you need in any quantity

it was on my new best friends for about 6 years
i was purchasing 5lb containers for $21.00
and the same for other stuff

steyr223 rob

ahhh the good ole days

 

[solar_plasma]

ahhh the good ole days

:lol: I don't know....how many times we have only been lucky, when we were kids...I at least would not allow my kids any experiments other than absolutely harmless, if they want chemistry, they can learn it at school under safe conditions and guidiance

 

[phillipcwhipple]

The more we learn, The more we find we need to learn.

My Mother used to say that, and you know what she was right.