Renstilskens wacky questions.

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electromotive series and the reactivity series of metals are very similar but also a bit different, as well as their use, and they are often confused.

Electromotive series is normally for electrolysis reactions, like batteries, electrochemical reactions...

Reactivity series of metals is what we use when we displace one metals ions from solution with another metal (cementing)...

http://berryberryeasy.com/2010/08/spm-chemistry-form-5-notes-terminology-and-concepts-oxidation-and-reduction-part5-correction/
 
4metals is right I forgot the stone set material.
My advice for that is to cut the settings off as close as possible and only treat them in the accepted removal process as you frequently get bits that just won't dissolve so do the stone set first and any left over undissolved pieces can be adde to the material to be inquarted.
My process was to first put all the stone set into very hot nitric carefully as some white gold alloys are high silver content, if you get no reaction then simply slowly add HCl to dissolve the gold and base metals and possibly PGMs, if you get a slight reaction with the nitric you can either pour it off into your silver cement pot or again just add HCl but in all cases go for hot from the start, if you use cold acids the build up of the silver chloride soon stops the reaction if you go hot it takes a while longer, be careful doing this and wear good gloves and eye protection and watch the fumes.
 
Hello fellas .. I have a problem.. Ok.. I I had 10 pounds of silver plated metals. Like platters and such.. So I cut them up and put them in my borcilite jug. And filled it with distilled water until it cover metal then poured 300 milliters of nitric acid and heated it up. Then left it over night . (All out side)but whe. I checked it today it still had metal in it . And is a reddish brown.. Like rust color.
Now should I add More nitric.. Or should I filter and rinse out.. What I have . And redo what is left over in a seprate batch .
 
Trying to process silver plate by digesting everything is a losing proposition. What happened to trying things on a small scale? What happened to studying more before jumping into new things.

You've created a toxic mess. My advice would be to abandon your effort, treat the whole mess as toxic waste, and find something else to occupy your time.

Dave
 
Ouch...that hurt..I thought I could do it.. Ok.. Back to the drawing board then.. I will start over ..hard lesson learned..
 
I was able to process the silver ware .. I thought I could do the same ..with the silver plated ..
 
Copper or copper alloys are more reactive than silver, As GSP say's it takes 3.4 times as much nitric to dissolve copper than it does silver.
Copper will cement out any silver in solution plating the silver back onto the copper until both are dissolved.

Silver can also be plated onto brass a copper alloyed with zinc. zinc is very reactive (higher in the reactivity series. Zinc will displace copper from solution.
Basically, until you dissolve everything into the nitric solution costing you a heck of a lot of money on nitric acid, you will not be able to recover the tiny little bit of silver that basically would not even pay for the nitric acid. FrugalRefiner has given some great advice sometimes the truth does hurt.

On a side note, I have been recovering silver plated on copper with my used copper/ferric chloride solutions hot and concentrated, I can recover the silver as AgCl. Then rejuvenate and reuse the solution, the depleted copper I run through a copper sulfate cell, I can get the silver and copper fairly well although the time and trouble would not be really worth it financially.


I am also doing some experiments with iron nitrate Fe(NO3)3 solution (an etch for silver) which looks somewhat promising.
2Ag + F3(NO3)3 <--> AgNO3 + Fe(NO3)2
(some chloride Ions seem to help).
Hot concentrated the reaction shifts to the right. Cool dilute it shifts back toward the left.
Silver plate is fun to experiment with but it is a good way to waste your time.

Wet etching / recovery of the silver plate, can be done but it is basically a losing proposition.

we should just forget it (but I am having too much fun experimenting right now).
Unless you can produce a lot of electricity very cheaply, and can make copper anodes, and are in the business of electro-refining copper, silver plate is not going to help your bank account.
 
Ahh..see I had asked before about this.. But no one answered me..I had asked was it worth thing to recover..and since no one said anything.. I thought I could do it.. I did not know their was was copper in the silver plating..ok minor set back.. Lesson well learned. I will not be discharged. I was a fun experience. I have learned a lot from it.time to move on... And frugal..you will not dissuade. I will become a refiner.. Sometimes you have to make a mess to make it right..life is a learning process..and I will take ur hard advice into account.. I will only do small amounts.. At a time until I get it right.. Thanks for the bashing..have a great day..but I am still reading..I think I was just excited and a little ahead of my self..
 
Butcher..thank you the detailed info their.. This is very helpful.. For when I go hunting for silver.. I will no longer buy silver plated items..so I now have in that mix silver and copper cement mixed together..hmmm..with some zinc..ok..hate to just grow it all away..
I do have a question for moderators.. I had bought a silver subscription..but my name hasn't changed.color.. And I did not receive a confirmation on my paypal for it yet ..who do I talk to for it., you have been teaching me a lot.. Wanna give back..
 
Renstilsken said:
And frugal..you will not dissuade. I will become a refiner.. Sometimes you have to make a mess to make it right..life is a learning process..
Ren, I respectfully suggest you give thorough consideration to the reverse of that statement. Sometimes one is able to make it right, despite having made a mess.

I often hear it said: There are bold pilots and there are old pilots. But there are no old, bold pilots. It is a maxim equally applicable in this field. When you play around with these chemicals and you get it wrong, you are not guaranteed forgiveness for your sins. They may easily cost you your health or your life. While wishing him well, we still haven't heard any confirmation that Todd is alive.

The less you try to learn from [quite frankly] imminent failure, and the more you read every possible stage and its contingency, the greater your chance of successful recovery and refining.
 
Ren if you have silver plated brass or copper my advice would be to use it for cementing silver that way you get the little silver back for free, if it's brass use it only for a while and then switch to pure copper or silver plated copper or you could cement copper out again with the zinc in the brass.
 
Well I don't know who Todd is ..but I hope he is alright..
I did use extreme caution when I did this, I had it in a outside isolated space.. And gave it a wide birth .. After adding chemicals. And had full protection gear on. I don't think I failed at anything .. My only goal right now is to learn the process.. So today I was brain storming about what butcher said..all day..and took a look at the reactive chart. And you read my mind in answering my next question. Nickvc.. So I can cement the silver with the copper and zinc with , an already dissolve solution of nitric acid and silver.. It would be like peeling a banana.. I would essentially ,Be leaching the silver off of the copper or brass while cementing the dissolved silver. At the same time..that was what I see in my jug this morning. The cemented silver..?gotta check again.now once I did that I would have to filter it and then cement again with the zinc to get the copper out..
Will do some research on this.. Man this is funstuff here..very exciting.almost like a puzzle..thanks for all the insight fellas. And being so kind in helping me out.. I am still studying aswell..observation is the key to success.
 
Renstilsken,
enjoy yourself and have fun,and be safe. But study, study, and study some more, that is where you are going to get the true gold, education is your treasure map.

This is why we strongly suggest such things as reading Hoke's book and her getting acquainted experiments, the safety thread and dealing with waste, the general reaction list, and guide to the forum, and when you're ready, start working on simpler materials at first like memory fingers, Karat gold, or sterling silver, this way you gain the basic principle and skills to build upon...

Experimenting is where we learn, and yes we do learn from our mistakes, but it is smarter to learn as much as you can before you start making those mistakes, or else that is all a person will do is just make one mistake after another without getting anywhere productive. If we educate ourselves first we can learn to do it right and continue to educate ourselves... If all we do is make mistakes without studying first, that is all we will learn, is how to make more mistakes getting us nowhere. Where safety is a big issue we may not have a chance to learn much, if we harm ourselves doing things which we do not even know the dangers that are involved in what we are attempting.

I can guarantee you will proceed faster in your goal becoming a refiner if you slow down and study, it will open up a whole world of possibilities, you will make less costly and dangerous mistakes. With these skills you are learning to become an inorganic chemist, you do not do that by just blindly mixing things in a beaker and seeing what happens, or seeing your mistakes and then asking questions of what went wrong and how can I fix it. you should have already studied and known what could possibly go wrong and corrected your thinking, and the experiment to avoid as mush as possible of anything going wrong.

The total experiment is not a mistake and when some minor thing goes wrong you have the education to figure it out and correct the minor problems. You learn from those minor mistakes in the experiment not that the whole experiment itself was a total mistake.

You would study everything you can find out about the reaction, study its dangers and how to avoid them, then when you were ready you would try it out on a small scale, or even do several pre-experiments, then after collecting data you would go back and study more...

Gold fever is dangerous especially in what we do here, it makes people lose their common sense, trouble is with gold most of us get the fever. It happens to most all of us at one point, usually when we first begin. This may be the first thing to overcome. Then we can settle down and actually get someplace learning more about gold and these valuable metals.

Have fun and keep it safe.
 
Butcher I have just read your post.. And you are rightly so.. After thing of what I did it was a little foolish.. And I have have hokes book again. And realized how much I missed. It also took me two days to properly clean out all my beakers.. I was so mad at myself. And such a waste of chemicals. Though I did keep the solution . After I filter it three times.. A lot of red mud.. I went through 100 coffee filter..urghh..it was a mess.. But I do have 2000 liters of solution(black green in color.) b/c i did all out side. And I have been studying every day since then. So I know I have some copper and silver in their. So it may not be a total lost.. Have to wait and see.
Ok after reading reading hokes book again ., I am a little confused about the whole silver chloride , and silver cement. Is not the chloride . The silver cement.
 
In a solution that have both copper and brass in can I use bismuth to drop or precipitate silver with out dropping or precipitating the other two metals in solution.
 
Brass is usually just a copper/zinc alloy, although there are variations. Since Bismuth is right above copper on the electromotive series, you will probably drop it along with silver. You won't drop the zinc. Why would you not use copper to drop the silver? It won't drop the copper or the zinc. Only the silver. Also, the price of bismuth is a little higher than copper.
 
2000 liters?

528 gallons?

I thought I had alot of waste to treat.. Suddenly, my 8 five gallon buckets doesn't seem so bad..
 
I am a little confused about the whole silver chloride , and silver cement. Is not the chloride . The silver cement.

I am not sure what your confusion is (you need to explain better what you are asking, giving us more detail on specifics).

Assume we dissolve silver in nitric acid:
Silver (Ag) is oxidized by the nitric acid (HNO3) to silver ions (Ag+) dissolved in solution, the metallic elemental silver atoms gave up electrons to the nitric acid (Oxidation mean to give up electrons). The nitric acid (HNO3) is reduced to nitrate ions NO3-, the nitric acid gained electrons and is reduced (reduction means to gain electrons) to form the nitrate ions and water. The silver nitrate (AgNO3) is soluble in water. if this was pure silver the solution would be as clear as water, if this was sterling silver the copper nitrate in the solution would color the solution blue (green in free nitric)...
3Ag(s) + 4HNO3(aq) --> AgNO3(aq) + NO(g) + H2O(l)

Now if we cemented the silver from the solution using copper, the copper would displace the silver from solution. the copper is oxidized to copper ions in solution, the silver is reduced back to metallic silver (as a gray powder). Copper metal gives up its electrons to become ions, silver ions gain electrons to become silver atoms with all of its electrons in its orbital shells.
The clear solution would turn blue as the gray metallic silver powder was reduced from solution and copper ions colored it.(Some silver metal would stick to the copper buss bar and could be brushed off).
2AgNO3 + Cu --> 2Ag + Cu(no3)2
The result is silver metal powders that can be washed of any copper and dried and melted to shiny silver metal.
which would need to be further refined in a silver cell...

Now let's say we had a clear solution of silver nitrate, and now we add table salt NaCl or HCl acid. The clear solution would turn milky (this is also a good test for silver in solution), we then see the reaction which would develop, clumping of the milky salts and develop fluffy clumps of silver chloride salt that take a while to settle in the clear sodium nitrate solution (if no copper is involved). After the silver chloride settled we would have a clear solution of sodium nitrate (that could be reused for something else like making nitric acid)...
AgNO3 + NaCl --> AgCl + NaNO3
We cannot directly melt the washed silver chloride salts (silver chloride is volatile and most of it would go up in a white smoke if we tried). We would need to convert the silver salt back to into silver metal powders before melting (there are several ways we do this like H2SO4 and iron, HCl and aluminum, NaOH and corn sugar Karo syrup, or a fusion with sodium carbonate...).

I have bismuth metal but would not use it to cement copper. Besides once you have silver and copper in solution why in the world would you want to cement both of them together, why not use copper to replace the silver from solution---then use iron metal to get the copper...

Keep studying, the more you study the more all of this begins to make much more sense, and the clearer you will see all of this. Right now, you are asking questions, that will be more simple to understand as you study more. Do the experiments in Hoke's book to see it for yourself, it will make much more sense to you that reading answers to the questions, in a few hundred posts. Hoke also teaches you the chemistry without going into the chemistry details, once you understand Hoke's book and have done the experiments in her book, then you can dig deeper into the chemistry side of the formulas and reactions, it to understand it much more deeply.
Study, is your map to the lost silver mine and to that pot of gold you seek...
 
Thanks for the clarification..butcher...I was suppose to say 2000 mil liters not 2000 liters .. Auto spell check did that sorry. Ok now on that electromotive series chart I found in forum. It said bust hums is only two steps higher than silver and below copper. That is why I had ask. That questio. But I can use copper bar to drop silver .. great. Now the. Silver chloride , is not silver nitrate..but has tobe converted back to silver cement. Will review method for this in hokes book..
So I keep hearing about this silver cell is the cement not clean enough to melt and sell as is.. Or do I need to purify it more. With this cell..gotta get back to work. Will read more tonight and re-read what you said butcher . Study on it thanks for the lesson..
 
Renstilsken said:
Ok now on that electromotive series chart I found in forum. It said bust hums is only two steps higher than silver and below copper. That is why I had ask. That questio.
When you're talking about cementing, you want to use a Reactivity Table of Metals, not an Electromotive Series.

Renstilsken said:
So I keep hearing about this silver cell is the cement not clean enough to melt and sell as is.. Or do I need to purify it more. With this cell..gotta get back to work.
There is info on silver cells here in the forum. If your technique is solid, you can produce cement silver that is pure enough to sell. Since you almost definitely won't have that solid technique down right away, count on it not being .999 pure. Similarly, if you go the silver chloride route, better technique gives better results.

Then again, "pure enough to sell" really depends on the buyer. But in general, a cell gets you a better quality output than just cementing.
 
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