Silver Cell?

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toadiesop

Well-known member
Joined
Mar 28, 2007
Messages
156
Maybe it has been posted elsewhere but a thread here would be good.

Is there a such thing? What it the process? Thrift stores have many plated items (silverware, serving trays, ect.) for really cheap. Mine sells silverware (hundreds of them) for 10 cents each and some large serving trays (some two feet long) for 1 dollar.

What are some processes for getting just the silver off?
 
You would need to setup a large silver stripping cell for the tray. You could reverse the electroplating process to strip the silver. Here's what wiki has on the subject of electroplating:

http://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Electroplating

If you read thru the article you will see that it states in the Current Densities paragraph that reversing the current will cause the silver to reverse plate.

I'm sure Chris can provide information an actual setup for this type of activity.

Steve
 
A traditional silver cell is only used to process solid silver that is at least 90% (sterling silver, e.g.) pure to 99.99%. Like aqua regia is for gold, a silver cell is the final purification step for most silver recovery operations, no matter what items are started with.

Most all silver plated materials have copper or copper alloys underneath the silver. I know of no common cell that will selectively remove silver plate from copper based items, except the strong sulfuric cell that you are presently using. However, what do you do next, economically? Silver stripping was included in the original sulfuric patent but, I've never played with it. The patent holder was a plater and stripping faulty plating was the original intention of the patent

I once developed a cell using cyanide plus a large amount of sodium hydroxide that didn't eat the copper and worked quite well but, you had to keep the parts moving in a tumbler. The silver (or, gold) that stripped automatically plated out on the cathode. The coinage metals, gold, silver, and copper, are found together in nature and have many chemical properties in common. All can be dissolved in cyanide, for example. The high sodium hydroxide in my cell slowed greatly the attack on the copper. This system is, obviously, beyond your scope.

In the books, about the only method given is the super nasty, super dangerous hot concentrated sulfuric plus a little nitric - I think they say 5% for the nitric. No electrolytic cell. All you have to do is immerse the parts. For thin plating, heating isn't necessary. Here again, this process doesn't work economically. It's designed to strip faulty plating off so the parts can be replated.

Most refiners don't want silver plated items. Basically, silver plated copper is considered as contaminated copper. Most silver plated copper only runs 1% silver. Some silverware is higher. Don't buy it unless you pay a lot less than copper price. If you do have a bunch of it, look for a refiner that burns boards, melts all the resulting metals into ingots that run about 65% copper, and then ships the ingots for further refining. He might, just might, pay you a small price over copper market. He always needs cheap copper and can add the stuff to the melt. He often needs extra copper to lower the melting point of hi-temp melting items containing lots of iron and nickel. The big smelter he ships to will pay him for the silver.
 
I was wondering this as well about silver plate it is cheap!
I think the last silver plate I bought at an auction I paid 9 dollars
for 7 pounds of forks and spoons. And I have another box of teapots,
creamers,trays etc I picked up for 1 dollar, I also purchased a silverplated award platter for the
G.V.C. Badminton 1951 Mens Doubles, runner-up that cost me 2 dollars.
I couldnt pass that one up, I probably would have paid 5 dollars for that
platter just so I could say I did.

Anyway here is my thought, What is the hardness of copper and silver
Isn't silver softer? If silver is softer and you placed the plated items in a tumbler with an abrasive that was harder than silver but softer than copper wouldnt it remove the silver
 
What about dissolving it in Nitric, then precipitating it out with table salt, etc.. (See Lazersteve's tutorial "Seperating gold from silver").. do you really nead to be seperating it from gold or would that method work for the metals that silver is normally plated to (ie: copper, etc)..
 
NOTE:
Since my video Harold has pointed out that copper bus bars or a cut ring of copper pipe will drop the silver as cemented silver without producing silver chloride. This method is better because it avoids the production of silver chloride which can be hazardous and difficult to work with. According to GSP (Chris) this is known as the Silver Chloride Aversion (meaning you should avoid making silver chloride unless absolutely necessary).

Steve
 
yeah, I was wondering about that myself.. Silver Chloride can be pretty nasty if you're not careful with it. Is there any loss in purity from taking silver chloride and reducing/refining it to silver versus the copper method?..
 
Goldsilverpro

Would increasing the glycerine amount in sulphuric/glycerine recipe increase silver stripping ability of electrolytic cells in general? Offhand is there a better catalyst to use?

Thanks, as always, for your help!

Wayne
 
I have never used glycerin in the sulfuric cell. In fact, I've never gotten a good explanation of why it is used. I have also never used the sulfuric cell for stripping silver. The hassle of getting it out of the solution has always outweighed the benefits. The patent was used to reclaim and eventually replate parts that had faulty plating on them. I don't think that the reclaiming of small amounts of $1.29/tr.oz. silver ever entered their minds.

Trust me, there is no economical way to recover silver from silver plated copper alloys, except for maybe the cyanide/hydroxide electrolytic method that I mentioned earlier. This is a shame since there are zillions of tons of this material out there. It is basically contaminated copper. If anyone ever figures out how to do it, they could become wealthy. Good luck.
 
goldsilverpro

I even bought a air die grinder and large carbide cylinder burs & bud burs etc. Ran with 5hp 30 gallon air compressor, grinding in a small sand blasting cabinet . I tried silverware, platters, cups, vases etc. It was a very loud, labor intensive type of work! It simply wasn't worth doing...!

Thanks again,
Wayne
 
Noxx, I was thinking about the price in 1940, when the patent was written. This price made a silver dollar worth a dollar.

Actually, I just looked up the prices and I was wrong. The 1940 average price was about $.35/oz. The $1.29 didn't come into play until about 1963.

Austex, I bet it wasn't worth it. I'm glad it was you doing it and not me. Steel shot peening would work but it might not be worth it either.
 
goldsilverpro said:
Actually, I just looked up the prices and I was wrong. The 1940 average price was about $.35/oz. The $1.29 didn't come into play until about 1963.

Notwithstanding, your comment was deadly accurate. Silver coinage was struck based on a silver value @ $1.29/ounce.

It might come as a surprise to those of you that remember the silver dollar that ten dimes weigh the same as a silver dollar, as do four quarters or two halves.

Harold
 
Goldsilverpro

I've made a second test cell for silver. I'm going to try Liquid Fire drain opener with 5% nitric, no glycerin. This is a pyrex pan with copper cathode, contact strip and anode.

I bought a crock pot with removable ceramic insert to turn into a heatable cell, will use a copper cathode, contact strip, and anode in this cell also. In Hoke she mentions using heat to expedite dissolution of silver used for inquartation of gold. Do you think the additional heat will adversely affect cathode, etc. in conjunction with electrolytic cell? This little cell will hold 6 cups sulphuric with room below cathode and anodes for settling silver sulphate etc. Might it also be a slight improvement for gold plated electrolytic cell?

She states in using sulphuric for removal of silver when used for inquartation technique that it takes from 2 to 3 ounces of sulphuric for each ounce of metal approximately. With approximately 48 ounces of sulphuric in cell it should hold around 16 ounces of metal. I'm guessing at least a third of that will be base metal, leaving about 10 ounces silver with recovered value of about $13 an ounce, not too bad for about $10 sulphuric and lots of labor to make plated scrap fit into cell. Using your and Catfish's formula for surface area and approximate thickness to estimate amount of silver return, I'd better buy silver plate pretty cheap to make a profit! This is kinda depressing before I even start! I should probably make a large enough cell to strip whole pieces without having to cut anything to fit in cell.

Hoke also mentions the possible use of potassium nitrate with sulphuric. Would the potassium nitrate from farm supply work if liquefied with water then siphoned off sediment and filtered? She doesn't mention a recommended strength or percentage. I suppose I should boil down to remove water so I don't dilute sulphuric too much and will also increase strength. Am guessing I should use about the same 5% as called for using nitric. Have you ever used this material with sulphuric in reverse plating?

Would I do better using an iron or mild steel cathode? I'm going to play around with this but any further advice would be greatly appreciated!

Will precipitate exactly like when using nitric, with table salt. Then wash many times to remove other base metals etc., until clean. Use karo syrup, then add lye or viceversa and wash many times, and melt.

Thanks again for all your help on the forum!

Wayne
 
Wayne,

I'm having a little problem following you but, it seems that what you are doing could be very dangerous.

I have never seen the 95H2SO4/5HNO3 combo used electrolytically and see no reason for doing so. This is an immersion method. It works slowly at room temp. You can speed it up with heat but, hot concentrated sulfuric is very dangerous to work with, especially when you've added nitric to it.

There is a very good possibility that the conc. sulfuric will eat the glaze off of the crockpot. If this happens, the ceramic will soak up the sulfuric like a sponge and will break when heated. Talk about dangerous. I've been there and done that.

Getting the silver out of the conc. sulfuric is a big problem. You can't add the salt to the conc. sulfuric. If you do, the chloride from the salt, instead of dropping silver chloride, will immediately be converted to dangerous chlorine gas. In order to drop the AgCl, you will first have to dilute the cooled sulfuric with about 9 volumes of water. ALWAYS ADD THE ACID TO THE WATER!!! NEVER ADD THE WATER TO THE ACID!!! The problem here is that the silver is only slightly soluble in dilute sulfuric. When you dilute, a lot of the silver drops as silver sulfate. Then, when you add the salt, you will end up with a mixture of silver sulfate and silver chloride. This mixture won't completely work with the Karo syrup method.

I no longer have a Hoke book. I do remember that, towards the back of the book, she mentions some INDUSTRIAL processes that are used. I think the dissolving of silver by hot conc. sulfuric acid fell into that category. This was commonly used for hi-silver, silver/gold dore' bars. If I remember right, it was done very hot in a cast iron vessel. Very dangerous method if you're not set up properly to do it. Lots of SO2 fumes, also.

I know that the wide availability of silver plated copper base scrap is like a carrot dangling in front of your nose. I've gone through this myself and can guarantee that the way you're approaching it is no good. The only method I've found that works economically and fairly safely, on some materials, is electrolytic cyanide containing a lot of sodium hydroxide.

Most silver plated copper scrap runs in the ballpark of 1% silver, about $2 per pound. It's not worth the injuries you could sustain by the method you have outlined.

Chris
 
Goldsilverpro

Thank you so very much!

I've scrapped the crockpot idea, the crockpot I bought was $3 at a garage sale with the glaze already worn away on bottom from stirring etc. I glad I waited to hear from you to try!

We have a friend here in Austin who has had severe lung problems most of her adult life from cyanide bombing jewelry while manufacturing. She can't even go outside her home on ozone action days! I won't do that.

When I get enough silver plate to send to copper refiner I'll will do that instead. Might try to replate some of the better old items!

One thing I've learned in life is to listen to the voice of experience.

This forum is much better than a book anyday because of people like you!

Thanks again

Wayne
 
Mixing conc. Nitric and Sulfuric is also dangerous because if you drop or soak accidentally some cotton in it, you just made a very powerful, shock and friction sensitive explosive ! :shock:
 
GSP--

While I built a stripping cell, it was never put in service, so I have no practical experience to lend to this conversation, but I do have a question.

Doesn't the original patent discuss the de-plating of silver? Can't the sulfuric cell be used to strip silver from copper alloys? I got the impression it could. The one problem I can foresee is that while it might strip the silver, it won't precipitate it the way it does gold. Any comments?

Harold
 
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