Silver Mica Capacitors

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Thanks Oz,

I posted it wrong, but I figured on the basis of assuming all the weight was Cu and the number I actually did was close to 28 ml. It's in the 45 degree garage bubbling away. That 3.4 ratio is nice when cementing, but not so nice when dissolving.
 
FrugalEE said:
It's in the 45 degree garage bubbling away.
A heated work space huh? I was fighting the cold all last night in the lab as I do not heat it. It was taking about 15-20 minutes before a spray bottle would have the nozzle freeze and I would have to exchange it for a thawed one from in the house.
 
Oz said:
FrugalEE said:
It's in the 45 degree garage bubbling away.
A heated work space huh? I was fighting the cold all last night in the lab as I do not heat it. It was taking about 15-20 minutes before a spray bottle would have the nozzle freeze and I would have to exchange it for a thawed one from in the house.

Yep I agree with the weather, 14F this morning at 1:00AM. I will have to admit at least you don't have to wait for your solution to cool in an ice bath for filtering..
 
Oz,

You have my sympathy. No way could I stand that.
Our south facing basement garage is not heated except for solar and unintentional losses from the house. I've gone out of my way to seal and insulate the heat ducts and I've turned the doors into solar collectors.
 
Oz said:
FrugalEE said:
It's in the 45 degree garage bubbling away.
A heated work space huh? I was fighting the cold all last night in the lab as I do not heat it. It was taking about 15-20 minutes before a spray bottle would have the nozzle freeze and I would have to exchange it for a thawed one from in the house.

Good time to make Poor Man's nitric, Methinks. :mrgreen:
 
Irons said:
Oz said:
FrugalEE said:
It's in the 45 degree garage bubbling away.
A heated work space huh? I was fighting the cold all last night in the lab as I do not heat it. It was taking about 15-20 minutes before a spray bottle would have the nozzle freeze and I would have to exchange it for a thawed one from in the house.

Good time to make Poor Man's nitric, Methinks. :mrgreen:

Yep does great making it in these temps when it comes to the cooling step but I still put it on ice.
 
frugalEE,

Would greatly appreciate the DMG, As for customs. I highly doubt there would be any issues. I used to work for a importer who manufactured in China. I cleared customs at pearson Int'l. You could almost reach out and touch the planes as they landed.Security really didn't seem to be a big priority.PM me and I would gladly give you my info.

As for the parts, A friend brought me hundreads of boards that are covered with these things. Also alot of gold parts. said they came from old police radio equipment.Mabey a place to look for scrap?
 
Lunker,

I mailed your DMG this morning from our post office.

I finally got my two test capacitors dissolved in nitric, but I had to add quite a bit of heat and more water and nitric. It dissolved everything but the mica and a little white powder. After filtering and adding some deionized water I set aside a few ml solution in a test tube and then put a 7.5 gram copper sheet in the beaker. It started cementing right away. After 4 hours it looks about finished, but I'll leave it over night.

I mixed up some DMG solution, but the best alchohol I could find was some old Vodka at 39%. At least that is better than rubbing alchohol, but the best seems to be HEET in the yellow botttle or something close to 100% grain alchohol. Anyway the 0.25 grams I put into 25 ml is not all dissolved YET.

I put a sample of my filtered solution in a minature test tube and added some DMG. After about 15 minutes I could see a small amount of light yellow precip in the bottom of the tube.

I put another sample on a plastic spoon and added Stannous test solution. It turned light yellow, I added some more and it got more yellow, but after a few minutes it turned clear and I have white powder which is almost certainly silver chloride.

I put a third sample on a spoon and added some silver test solution I got in a kit. I presume it is Schwerter's, but the bottle is incorrectly labeled as just acid. This one turned yellowish green and gradually got darker. The sheet on the test kit says that silver 65 to 75% will be light green in color and 80 to 90% will be light red or brownish. It takes 90 to 100% to turn dark red. Does anybody know if this kind of test solution is standard Schwerter's or something special designed for jewelery/coin testing??

Tomorrow I'll harvest and dry my precip and weigh it as well as the copper piece.

We're at the start of a heat wave so conditions in the garage were bearable today for a change and I had fun doing this.

FrugalEE
 
This morning the stannous test sample that was yellowish green and then went clear is again yellowish green and I can't see any precip. That's pretty weird!

The DMG test is the same and there definitely is precip, but it's a stretch to say it's yellow, however it is in a dark blue solution from all the Cu.

I googled this part and the common term for it is clamped mica. I plan to do some unclamping to study the structure. I found a couple of surplus outfits selling them for $1.25 (12Pf) to $3 (470 Pf like I dissolved) each. I also found lots of references to things like Motorola application notes where the part was used in transmitting circuits. It almost got me wanting to build transmitters again.

FrugalEE
 
Funny thing happened, I removed and cleaned my Cu strip and went to breakfast. When I went to recover my cementations about 30 minutes later I found that they had dissolved back into solution. I've been searching the forum and found good postings back in Nov of 2008 by Oz, Harold, Lou, and GSP and I've come to the realize I made the following mistakes:
1. I should not have pulled the Cu out before I was ready to pour & filter. Do you seasoned cementers always leave the Cu in just prior or even during the pour off process?
2. I used too much nitric.
3. I didn't dilute enough
4. I didn't agitate and scrape cement off the Cu enough
5. I stopped cementing too soon
6. I created a lop sided solution that has way too much Cu vs values. It's maybe 100:1 and I suspect that creates a considerable overlapping between conditons for dissolving and conditions for cementing. I can help the metal ratio by removing end terninals and dealing with them separately.

Any comments?

FrugalEE
 
FrugalEE said:
Any comments?
Only one.
You used too much nitric. Everything else doesn't matter. You can leave copper in with the recovered (cement) silver as long as you wish, with no real negative effects---so long as you don't have too much nitric present.

Hoke comments in her book that the novice tends to use too much acid. You can better learn the lesson by heating your reactions, so the acid works rapidly---and it's obvious when it is exhausted.

There is no need to agitate while cementing (although it certainly does no harm). The only thing that is required is that you agitate when the reaction is near completion, so you uncover silver nitrate that has been dragged down by cemented silver and trapped. Agitation allows the silver nitrate to be included in the solution, where it is then exposed to copper for cementation.

Harold
 
Harold,

Thanks, I did heat, but not very hot and I added too much nitric as it was taking quite awhile. I'm still getting cement out and I'm denoxing right now. Another really funny thing happened. The 1/2 inch or so I set aside in a test tube before diluting and cementing has grown a copper foil like sliver about 3/4 inch long and 1/16 inch wide. What's going on there?

Results so far: I recovered .325 grams of Ag/Pd in a coffee filter and I'm going to have to burn this to get anything out. I'll use the filter again for a second filtering of what is left and weigh again.

I took another 510 Pf cap apart quite easily and photographed the pieces in the order removed. The frame clamp (far left) is quite beefy as is the next metal piece. Everything is plated both sides except those weird copper foils. There is quite a bit of wax in the assembly and I should have incinerated before putting parts in nitric. The wax got all over my beaker and was hard to remove.
 

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FrugalEE,

That's what the ones I have look like. I tested the parts with schwerters before I dissloved them and they came up blood red.I have taken 25 square peices and have filed the plating off of them to reduce the amount of copper in solution. I am dissolving the plating in nitric and will add Hcl to precipitate the silver as a chloride. I can then filter the solution and de nox. I will see if any Pd cements out. or could test with DMG. Dose this sound like a correct approach?
 
Lunker, Do I understand correctly that you took 25 capacitors apart and filed the silver off 4 metal pieces in each? Lot of work, but that will surely get rid of most of the copper and you'll be able to come up with good numbers. It's too bad there isn't a decent way to strip silver plating and recover it economically. What value caps are you dealing with? Lower values will not have so many parts.

Unless you are sure that will separte the two I advise against the chloride approach and just cement in nitric. If Pd stays in solution I think that scheme is pretty smart. You need to be sure that Pd stays as a nitrate or if it converts to a chloride that the chloride is soluable.

I have no idea yet how to separate metallic Pd from metallic Ag except in a silver cell. I really don't want to get into dealing with the PGM group, at least not until I"ve done a lot more with gold and silver. I'll just save the silver I get and maybe some day run it in a silver cell which will leave the Pd as anode slimes.

I seem to be getting quite a bit more cement to drop. I used some heat for a couple of hours. I should not have said denox in last post as that requires evaporation until syrup stage. All I did was speed up the cementing with heat.

FrugalEE
 
Harold nailed it, too much nitric.

Especially if you had some black on your copper when it “looked finished” as Pd is slow to cement to completion. Something to consider is that in your effort to cover a small amount of material (in small scale tests) with your solution you may have used the proper proportions of acid to water but used too much volume(hence too much acid). You could have kept the volume the same to cover the material, but used less acid at a higher heat or greater timeframe.

Speaking a little bit as to the cementation of PMs and time frames. I keep all of my chloride, nitric, and sulfuric solution wastes separate after removing values. Then before I process them further for waste disposal, I cement them all to copper for a month or more. It is not a large recovery gained by doing this, but it takes little effort to do so (as long as you have not used excess oxidizing agents) before removing the base metals and then neutralizing the solution for proper disposal. As our old friend Irons likes to say “everything but the squeal”.

More pertinent to the question at hand, when I first started making electrolyte for silver cells is where I really learned this lesson as to silver solubility in nitric at a given temperature. Since I was just learning about silver cells I wanted to be very accurate as to what my electrolyte contained so I used .999 silver to start. My silver was fine grained so should have gone into solution very readily and it is worth noting that I was using ACS grade nitric.

However I found that taking my solutions to a warm temp (think coffee but just a little too hot to drink) and holding that temperature for an hour, left me with undigested silver and a solution that still contained free nitric acid (much to my original dismay). If you try the same thing as I did starting out, and still have silver in the bottom of your beaker, you will be amazed by how much more silver will go into solution at just shy of boiling instead of lower temperatures. It is only after staying at a temperature just below boiling for 20 minutes (based on my experience), that you can be assured of having a nitrate solution completely saturated with silver (if fine silver still remains in the bottom of your beaker) with next to no free nitric acid remaining.

Now be aware that if you are not just trying to be sure of the complete consumption of all nitrates in a dilute solution, but have instead followed what I did above in making a concentrated silver nitrate solution. You must immediately follow your complete digestion of your silver to its saturation point at near boiling, and begin to dilute it with distilled water as it cools, or you will have a beaker filled with a solid mass of silver nitrate crystals.

To be clear, I have not tried to apply this procedure starting with pure Pd and nitric (in this topic it seems that Pd is a possible component), but my gut instinct tells me the results would be very similar. I know I have traveled off of the path of what FrugalEE was asking, but I felt it the best way to answer his questions based on my own experience.

I would love to hear a chemist give a more exacting explanation (a chemist I am not) and we would all learn much more than I can share. I will be honest, when I first came to this forum cementation and the electromotive series of elements rules did not seem to always follow their own laws by my own reckoning. It is only through trial and error that I have been able to make use of the concept. As an example, who here has tried to cement Pd on silver with success, despite what is supposed to happen electromotively?
 
lunker said:
I have taken 25 square peices and have filed the plating off of them to reduce the amount of copper in solution.
That sounds like a huge amount of labor for very little reward on a $ per hour labor basis. Not that it is normally recommended, but if what I am hearing is correct that there is silver and copper in this component that is soluble in nitric and the copper is equal to or greater than the silver by mass. Someone with experience could let their waste (the copper) cement out their values (the silver) as long as they understood how to be sure that their solution was fully cemented by the copper to be sure all the silver values were removed.

It goes without saying that you must consider “your” nitric cost as to this being a profit making venture despite the chemistry doing the job.

To be sure, if there is Pd present it complicates things, but this is easily handled with the same process if they understand testing for the values present.
 
This article from Ganoksin mentions testing palladium jewelry with iodine;

http://www.ganoksin.com/borisat/nenam/palladium-bench-guide.htm

Palladium Detection
Iodine can be used to detect the difference between palladium, platinum and white gold. To use Iodine, place a drop of it on the cleaned surface of the unknown white metal. As the small drop of Iodine evaporates and dries, it may take on a body color that will assist in the detection of the metal. Here are the most common reactions you can expect with a drop of Iodine after it has dried.

950 Palladium - Iodine turns black (as shown in example)
900 and 950 Platinum - Iodine is mostly colorless
14- and 18-karat white gold (below a rhodium plated surface) - Iodine turns brownish
 
Oz and Jimdoc thanks for your replies. Good info, but I'm going to have to do a bit of thinking and working some more with my solution before replying to Oz. I"ve been mulling the following in my mind for some time:

Palladium: After catalytic convertors the biggest world use of palladium is in multi-layer chip caps. That use is to insure solderability in highly automated production.

With this clamped mica is palladium really necessary as the part is hand soldered? With hand soldering one can use a solder with an active rosin flux to take care of any minor tarnish, but most places are probably like the place I worked for where the quality folks in the 80's took away any rosin solder that had any ability to clean a joint. Also most production places will want to follow use of rosin solder with an alchohol or other solvent washing. That's not too good an idea with a part that is only semi-sealed with wax so maybe it's justifiable to plate the surfaces that are to be soldered with Pd, however I've been looking at silver plated surfaces for 70 years and these caps look like normal silver plate with it's typical tarnish. Lunker also got red color using Schwerter's silver test.

Is there apt to be palladium on the mica? If so it would be for the purpose of maintaining a good connection as the layers are clamped together. Pd is not as good a conductor as silver and rf flows on the surface so Pd would result in more loss than Ag.

If Pd is plated on a surface that is soldered it is apt to be 50 millionths thick per Mil-P-45209b. Sometimes up to 30% Ni is alloyed with Pd plate. If used on internal surfaces for connection Pd plating could be only a flash. We should test each piece. Per Steve's data Pd should not produce any color change with Schwerter's test, but if plating is thin the base metal will also contribute to the test. I put Schwerter's on silver plated spoon and got dark color liquid indicating reaction with base metal. When I removed the liquid I had a red spot.

I seriously doubt one can make any money recovering values from these parts unless we find significant use of Pd, but this has been a wonderful learning experience.

OK, I've done my mind dump and now it's time to examine my solution which I think has gone bezerk again.

FrugalEE
 
FrugalEE,

I filed the small square peices from the insides of the caps.I understand that this is an uneconomical endevour. I am persuing this a more as an educational excercise.I don't know what the values of the parts are? And you are probably right that there is no meaningful use of palladium for these parts.it's the futile efforts that teach me the most. :lol: It's a shame though, i have hudreads of these boards. :cry:
 
Oz,

I agree that I used too much acid and not enough temperature. I started with what I needed for the parts weight assuming 100% Cu (I'll bet these parts are over 95% Cu). That gave me plenty of solution to cover, but dissolving was going too slow even with warming so I added nitric.

I didn't get any real black cement, but first cement that appeared was medium grey. I need to see some high purity Ag cement.

I like your idea of cementing long term your wastes and I'll probably do the same. So far all wastes from everything I've done have been saved including washes except for one wash I cemented out with iron.

Right now my solution has a lot more precipitate than I got the first time I filtered out the cementations. I'm going to heat it one more time and then DILUTE about 2:1, filter off values and try cementing some more.

I still would like comment from experienced refiner on whether or not they always keep bus in place until just before pouring solution through filter to collect values. My first cement dissolved during about 30 mintues the bus was out of solution.

Activitity series: My list is pretty detailed, but doesn't have Pd on it. So Pd is less active than Ag, but you've never heard of anyone cementing it out with Ag?

I' m keeping track of everything used including the Cu so I can report on the economic factor.

Interesting idea using copper wastes to cement. I believe Hrusi sp? is doing just that with Cu powder.

Before doing this on a larger scale some proceedures need to be worked out. The wax has to be dealt with. I thought of incinerating, but that would probably solder the layers together. I think the parts should be taken apart and degreased (boiling water with some soap?) and the bare Cu picked out. The silver/Pd plated parts could then be deplated using a cell or some kind of leaching process.

Lunker, Just saw your post. I got the feeling you were not in it for the money. Every part should be marked with value in front of Pf. Did you get same number of pieces in one part that I did?

FrugalEE
 
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