Start Up Business Plan Template

[patnor1011]

A niton XRF may help you identify metals ,but they are about $36,000

Jim

This handheld unit is good investment but bear in mind that it analyze only very thin layer on surface of scanned metal. We used that to identify plating. Another way to identify or estimate value was by taking say 100g sample of material which was melted down, properly stirred and then scanned with unit. That gave us idea of % content thus value of material in question. That was idea - not 100% bulletproof fact as if there is only small percentage of some metal it might not be alloyed perfectly with others in sample, but you can take readings from many places on that bar even cut that in half and scan there... Still much much more valuable than guess and faster than dissolving sample with chemicals.

And cheap version of Niton is erm... magnet.

 

[jimdoc]

And cheap version of Niton is erm... magnet.

And acid testing,and spark testing.
Specific gravity testing.

Jim

 

[joem]

I would like to add my tiny two cents.
Keven:
I applaud your ambitions even against the odds. You may not know all the answers but who really does. The whole part about the business plan is finding the questions then attaching the rigts answers that will give you direction and your financial backer, if any, security. But in this arena you could start as small as you wish (like I'm doing) or as large as your knowledge and finances can handle. Keep going forward with your plans and I am looking forward to browsing your web site with all those future pictures you will post with your success.

 

[4metals]

I would suggest a spot plate and a good pair of snips and some test acids and DMG. These simple items, combined with the experience of seeing and identifying the results properly are all you will need. Take along a copy of Hoke for good measure, until you know the indicators cold.

But the testing is only so you know what you're bidding on, you still have to segregate it and sample it to get money out of it.

 

[kevin faust]

I was doing some research earlier and came across a company called Koslow scientific out of Englewood, NJ; they produce a kit called Metal Detective Lab, which utilizes a nondestructive method. The kit includes all the necessary equipment to test and determine if the material in question is Stainless Steels, Alloy Steels, Tool steels, Plated Coatings, and Brasses & Bronzes, it also test for copper and copper alloys. It can also test for aluminum, carbon, chromium, cobalt, copper, gold, iron, lead, magnesium, magnesium silicide, manganese, molybdenum, nickel, silver, sulfur, titanium, tungsten, vanadium and zinc.

It is a little pricy at approximately $1200.00. It utilizes a four step process by way of Electro Spot Testing with a color spot test using a electrochemical method.

This definitely an interesting approach.

Some features include:

-Easy to Use
-Safe
-Non-Destructive
-Economical Portable
-No Outside Labs Needed
-Combination Lab Instructions
-Accessory Kit for Very Small Samples
-The Thermoelectric Approach to Alloy Sorting

I have not been able to find any negative or positive reviews on the item as of yet, however it does sound interesting.

Joe, I appreciate vote of confidence, as well as everyone else’s suggestions and help.

Kevin

 

[Oz]

The person I talked to about going into business is currently a state certified e-collector with permits from the EPA, which takes care of that aspect.

That kind of information would have been helpful in the beginning of this thread.

When I was pitching my initial idea, the owner told me this story about how he placed a bid at this auction, on a particular piece of equipment and was a little upset when he was out bid. The winning bidder noticed his discomfort and explained to him why he bid on this item so vigorously. It turned out that object in question was loaded with over $25,000 worth of platinum wire.

This is a prime example of the type of service I could offer this owner. This would require less training and capital to start. I already have quite a bit of experience verifying material manufacturing processes. I might even be able to convince the business owner to cover a metal testing kit or I could even make my own kit if possible (need to do more research on that aspect) and contract myself out to other customers.

With my years of experience in sampling and quantifying the type of materials used in the manufacturing process, I could help maximize his profits and get compensation in the form of bonuses. I have started reviewing some items which would come in handy to provide this type of service, like metal identification test kits. Is here anyone out there who has used this type of equipment in the past and can recommend something? I believe a kit like this could help verify metal content for a particular scrap item.

In military parlance you are referring to being a Quality Assurance guy/gal with the proper certifications. In almost the same breath you are saying you may be able to convince the business owner to provide a “metal testing kit” yet you are not even sure what you want or need to do the job if you need to do more research on whether or not it is possible to make a kit. In other words you are trying to sell experience that you do not have yet.

I am not trying to be mean, but you need to decide if you are going to come to this partnership with true knowledge they should see value in paying for, or if you are asking them to float you some cash and expense money to learn this with the possibility of them being an eventual beneficiary.

It almost sounds like you are telling your future business partner that you have interest in what they are doing and that if they buy you what you need you will spend the time to learn things they may want to know in the future once you find out what you need to have, and need to know, in order to be of benifit to them.

I am not saying this cannot be a good opportunity or niche for you given your background but do your homework before getting ahead of yourself.

 

[patnor1011]

Very true Oz.
In this business the main and the most important thing is word of mouth. If you can show excellency, professional work, good price you are getting customers. One happy customer will bring you few others. One dissatisfied will scare hundreds away.

 

[kevin faust]

Oz,

In military parlance you are referring to being a Quality Assurance guy/gal with the proper certifications.

In other words you are trying to sell experience that you do not have yet.

Thank you for your comment, even though I find it disparaging.

I am not claiming any sort of special qualification here, even though after 10 years with the US Navy, I did receive extensive training in non-destructive testing (NDT) this included the areas of Mag-partical, Eddy-Current, and Dye Penitrant. To be an NDT technician you must also receive extensive training in metallurgy. After my Honorable discharge, I was able to keep those qualification for another five years, until my work no longer required that particular qualification. This dose not mean that knowledge or experience is lost forever.

In addition, I am also an FAA certified Airframe and Power Plant Mechanic, I have held this certification for a proud 21 years. This has allowed me to extend my experience, skills and knowledge, while maintaining, fixed wing and rotary type aircraft for UCLA Medical Centers Life Flight Program, Stanford Universities Medical Centers Life Flight Program, as well as working for US Customs Air Division out of San Diego. Not to mention all the additional experience I accumulated while working on the Atlas and Titan Programs for 9 years.

So what your are accusing me of, is that even after the ten years in the US Navy and the twenty years since, as a veteran, with all that additional experience working in the Aerospace Industry, Aviation Field, Missile Industry and my last 5 years experience in the Manufacturing Industry, I am not qualified for the type of work I am suggesting.

In almost the same breath you are saying you may be able to convince the business owner to provide a “metal testing kit” yet you are not even sure what you want or need to do the job if you need to do more research on whether or not it is possible to make a kit.

From the above quote you make it sound like I am some kind of mooch or worse unethical, which is extremely insulting to me, as I would think it would be to anyone else. By suggesting making a kit, would imply that I am willing to do the extra work needed without, purchasing such an expensive kit. These were only meant as suggestions, as nothing has been confrimned or agreed upon. This post was just meant as a fact finding endeavor.

I am not trying to be mean, but you need to decide if you are going to come to this partnership with true knowledge they should see value in paying for, or if you are asking them to float you some cash and expense money to learn this with the possibility of them being an eventual beneficiary.

Oz, I have worked very hard in these industries for the past thirty years and have received recognition for my efforts and performance as an A&P Mechanic and while working in quality assurance. I am not taking anything for granted. I also do not wish to brag because my proof is in my experience, skill and knowldge. My experience and knowledge has been hard earned and is proven.

So Oz what are your qualifications, what qualifications do you claim to have, that allow you some kind of special ability, to decide if some one is qualified or not, to do the type of work I am suggesting here? As I said once before in an earlier post, you don’t know me from Adam, and you are willing to sit back behind that computer screen and judge me, without even knowing me.

I am sorry for this out burst. Never the less this, is another prime example of, an earlier post I made on how someone like Oz, believes it is ok to make unsubstantiated accusations like this, when he knows nothing of the individual he is speaking of.

I am a very positive individual who believes that anyone can do anything if they have the desire to learn, are willing to go that extra mile needed to accomplish that goal, and should never listen to people who are that negative, cynical, and unhelpful.

I apologize again to any members, if I have over stepped my bounds. Its just that at some point, when someone is acused of having unethical standards, they have the right to defend themselves.

Have a good Labor Day.

Kevin

 

[patnor1011]

Kevin,
first I want to say that it is not my intention to mentoring or lecture here. Secondly english is not my first language so sometimes it is hard to express my feelings or ideas right.
Oz or anyone from us is not here to discourage you or questioning your abilities or experience. We all try our best to help. He might sound harsh but it is because he is straight forward guy and his only intention is to show you traps or deep water you may and will encounter in your potential business.
Believe me or not I was in the same position as you about two years ago. I was firm believer in pursuing my dreams and there was not a hill tall enough for me to climb on.
My past however learned me to calm down and think. Yes we all heard stories that this is the right time and about people who did not missed their train but that road is littered with thousands of others who jumped on occasion too early and not prepared. I was prepared to pour money and time in to refining and was looking for help. Lots of people tried to help me but I did not realized that and I was thinking that they are against me. That is not the case but it will take time to acknowledge this.
It is much better feeling however you feel right now with all answers you got here, than feeling you may experience starting all this you want to and seeing everything collapse, and at the end of the day loosing not only nice dream but money and friends too. You can have success in your twenties, thirties or even as an old man. I have learned my lesson and proceed with care and patience. I still firmly believe that my dream become true one day and I do everything to make that happen - but with due care and enough of time to do it RIGHT. I had my fair share of failure and do not want to experience that feelings and situations again. Never ever.

 

[4metals]

Somehow this thread has digressed, the original subject was about a business plan for e-scrap and somehow it has worked its way back to the personal qualifications of a new member. While no one has intentionally tried to be hurtful, its all just off topic speculation. Why don't we all just take Kevin at his word and assume he can do the necessary work, he certainly has the power of positive thinking on his side. And for that alone I applaud him.

Now back to the e-scrap. First off it is scrap. So why all the talk and expense of non destructive testing when you can snip off a small piece and test it with good old fashioned spot testing. Second, I believe the owner of the scrap collection firm already has the scrap on hand, the trick is getting paid fairly. This is a sampling issue, plain and simple and I truly believe that anyone who can express himself as intelligently as Kevin has done on so far on this forum could work out the details of this business and get it done.

Lets talk about a business plan for sampling e-scrap and we can all get something from the discussion.

 

[Oz]

4metals, I will apologize in advance if you disagree but I did not see it off topic as to skill level if he is already in negotiation with an e-waste processor it becomes pertinent, nor complete speculation as to his expertise as before hand I took the time to read his posts and questions since joining the forum. I had his best interests in mind as to his negotiation with the e-waste processor he needs this business plan for, see below.

It is unfortunate that Kevin took what I had to say as a criticism of him personally and apparently failed to read the last line of my post in which I said “I am not saying this cannot be a good opportunity or niche for you given your background but do your homework before getting ahead of yourself”.

I was giving him credit for his past background and agree that what 4metals is suggesting to him would be a good path for him to follow because of that background. However before I wrote what I did I took the time to read his past posts and based on the questions he has asked since coming here he is still learning what is needed as to testing, and I suggested he do his homework before getting ahead of himself. Never did I say he cannot learn this, he is in the right place. For the record my ex-wife did Q&A for the government on NASA Shuttle contracts all across Europe and my father is a research physicist, neither are qualified to test PMs or rep refining lots, but their backgrounds would make it simpler for them to learn.

If he wishes to pursue determining values of lots for others or repping others refining lots while in process, I see 2 choices before him based on what he has said so far. If he has someone willing to sponsor him with wages and equipment while he learns, great, that allows income “now” for him (this does not make him a mooch as he felt I was implying). Alternatively he could invest the time and materials to learn this and then present himself as someone with these professional skills for sale. It could hurt more than help if he makes contacts before being prepared, as you never get a second chance to make a first impression. That could create missed opportunities that may not be recaptured later, and there are only so many in need of such services. These last 2 sentences were my greatest concern for him.

As to the question of my qualifications, I have no formal education nor any fancy papers. Read some of what I have written here or look at some of the pictures I have posted of my work. Then decide for yourself if I may have something of value to say. You may find it interesting to know that precious metals refining was a paying part time hobby for me until this economy got tough as I was in real estate and construction, both in the tank now. Refining is now what pays my bills.

Kevin, I am sorry for the misunderstanding, I had your best interests in mind. You will find it takes a certain thickness of skin to trade in this business as many have long held solid beliefs that you may end up being paid to disagree with if you follow this path. I will make the same deal with you as I have offered to others. If you see no value in my commentary, I will refrain from replying to your questions in the future.

PS; 4metals has spoken before of repping and sampling refining lots. He knows of what he speaks and we would all learn much by hearing him discuss it further.

 

[kevin faust]

Partner-1011,

Thank you for your post, I at times can get ahead of myself and need to be reigned in a bit. I sometimes focus so much energy and attention on one particular idea, that I forget some of the little things, and those little things can make, or break you, when you are not careful. I have only started learning this concept in the last few years, of proceeding with caution , as well as patience in any new endeavor. My excitement does get the best of me.

I like too just jump in, instead of testing the waters first. I am very safety consciences though, that is why it has taken me so long to try and make my own nitric acid. I have run through the process in my head and practiced the process without the actual chemicals and realized I needed a two bigger glass containers, before I proceed, which unfortunately finances are limited right now. I have been able to download a tutorial which has given me other options, that I am looking into right now.

4metals,

Thank you as well for your encouragement and understanding, this idea of mine and this post started out as a business plan opportunity, and due to all the wonderful comments and ideas, has changed direction to e-scrap, which I believe might be a better direction due to my extensive training and experience.

Therefore, if you could direct me to any previous posts or any other relevant information that can help me to get a better understanding of the e-scrap processes, or methods for testing metals it would be appreciated. Oz mentioned your extensive knowledge in this area of e-scrap and refining, so anything you have would be certainly helpful.

The opportunity in question, is dealing with an asset liquidation firm, which is state certified as an E-scrap collector, so when he receives the e-scrap, he sells it back to the state, as well as some of his other scrap collectors.

He showed interest in me because of my well rounded knowledge and experience in so many different types of industries. I can only assume that he believes, I might better help him to determine what is considered profitable e-scrap and what is not. I believe he wants me to do research, as well as locate the many different types of high end e-scrap items that may be available, which he could then purchase at a reasonable cost and either have me strip down to their precious metals, to then sell or have refined. The refining process is just an idea to cut out the middle man.

It sounds like a good idea to me, I do have the drive, the knowledge and experience from working in Aerospace and Manufacturing. With these skills I believe I could be of service. I am always open to learning all I can about other options and possibilities.

Oz,

Being trained in Quality Assurance and working in this field for so many years, I sometimes forget that everything is not always black and white, there are gray areas that need to be taken into consideration as well. A good QA Representative, needs to constantly remind himself of those gray areas. So when someone doubts my motives, ethics and/or morals, I take it a little personal. I apologize for any misunderstanding I may taken from your post.

I do not take criticism as well as I should and I have spent many years trying to get it under control, with some great progress, at times it can, and unfortunately does rear its ugly head. My wife is a very straight shooter and sometimes I prefer to have things a little sugar coated, so it goes down a little easier. The cold water technique, I have not mastered that well yet, even after being married for 25 years.

However I am trying to learn to curb my reaction, so I can be a more pro-active individual, instead of a reactive one. Reacting to something most often gets you into more trouble, than taking the added time to stop and really think about what was said or may have happened to cause a particular reaction. I believe it is important to see things in a positive light and not negative. It is not always that easy though, which I am constantly reminding myself.

Oz, I can see your value in what you have to say and I welcome it, so please do not refrain from posting anything to any of my questions and thank you for your help and understanding as well.

Kevin

 

[Oz]

Kevin, no problem. You are not the first new member I have been misunderstood by due to my directness, nor will you be the last. Water under the bridge.

4metals is correct as to nondestructive testing as this is scrap that will be destroyed. As I said, I know something of government Q&A as well as aircraft maintenance (I grew up flying in planes with my father who has owned and maintained several aircraft). The skill sets you needed to be successful in those 2 fields will lend themselves well to PM sampling and repping material. Mainly attention to detail, following procedures, and the repeatability of results.

As I said, 4metals has talked of this before and is well worth listening to. I dug up one of his old threads on this topic: http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=72&t=3166

I included this one as well that I found while looking for the first. It lacks the detail but it is about a company in your state. http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=84&t=5354&p=45572#p45572

 

[4metals]

There are many on the forum more versed in e-scrap than I am, I have never purchased the stuff, only processes drum after drum of e-scrap that came in to our refinery. As I said earlier most refiners will burn (incinerate) crush and sift the circuit boards, the powder is shipped to a copper smelter for refining. The solids remaining on the screen after sifting are melted with copper to make refiners bars which are also sampled and shipped to a copper smelter. Actually extracting the PM's from the scrap was only done on high grade hybrid circuitry and occasionally on plated scrap (which was stripped in cyanide).

While you probably will not be able to prepare the material as I have said above, you can segregate it in a way that will make sampling most accurate. Then you can watch it be processed as discussed in the link posted by Oz.

If you have any questions about sampling or witnessing or even assaying the material, I can help you there, as far as buying it my experience is limited as I always paid on out-turn.

 

[goldsilverpro]

As I said earlier most refiners will burn (incinerate) crush and sift the circuit boards, the powder is shipped to a copper smelter for refining. The solids remaining on the screen after sifting are melted with copper to make refiners bars which are also sampled and shipped to a copper smelter. Actually extracting the PM's from the scrap was only done on high grade hybrid circuitry and occasionally on plated scrap (which was stripped in cyanide).

Without exception, that is exactly how every refiner I was involved with handled e-scrap.

Before shipping, the powder (ash or pulps) was usually thief sampled, with a grain sampling tube, from the drums in several spots and then the samples were split down and fire assayed with several duplicates. One place I worked v-blended the powder and then split the whole thing down in a huge sample splitter. In one place I worked, in the 1960s/1970s, I remember that we ran 96 assays on one single lot of pulps that we had generated from many tons of boards. Pulps are quite heterogeneous by nature.

When melting the oversize metallics that remained on the 10-12 mesh screen, copper was added only if they wouldn't melt in a gas crucible furnace. If they were too high in high melting point metals, such as nickel or iron, copper had to be added to reduce the melting point. I'm thinking that the copper had to be about 65% to allow melting. The smelter paid for copper. Also, beyond a certain percentage, certain metals drew a penalty. For example, anything over 5% nickel was costly.

At that time, the stuff (both pulps and bars) usually ended up in a huge smelter in Europe - Boliden in Belgium, e.g. We got total payment in about 3 months. We could get advances, by paying interest, however.

In the early years, we shipped to ASARCO in either El Paso or East Helena, MT. However, it got more difficult to ship to them, since they were on and off about receiving material. I think that the ASARCO plants that handled these particular type materials were eventually shut down by the EPA.
http://www.npr.org/templates/story/story.php?storyId=123107232
http://helenair.com/news/article_782a2871-8aa9-56d9-9752-0664afd8c9d5.html

About 20 years ago, I heard of a guy in NM that was dissolving the refiner's bars in electrolytic weak sulfuric using a membrane cell.

 

[Oz]

4metals is being humble, and it is wonderful to have GSP join in with his great experience.

Fournines or P3M come to mind as some additional members that may have some experiences to share since they both handle electronic scrap in some quantity I believe.

You have to love this forum. I believe it was Harold who recently said “there is over 100 years refining experience here looking over your shoulder and helping you along the way”.

 

[Btalbot]

The post is pretty interesting. I really never thought I could have a good read by this time until I found out this site. I am grateful for the information given. Thank you for being so generous enough to have shared your knowledge with us.

This post appears to have been made for the sole purpose of spamming the board. The link has been removed, as has the link in the following post. Any further attempt to spam the forum will be met by banning this individual.

Harold

 

[Btalbot]

Interesting post. I'll have to keep it in mind, because I'd love to run my own business soon. It'll obviously be challenging, so I can use all the financial help I can get..

 

[Palladium]

What is this thread?
Spammer 101

Chuckle!

It may have been, but they've been banned for their trouble.

Harold

 

[silversaddle1]

What is a business plan?

The only plan I had when I started this business was to make money.

And we did it by recycling just about everything we could.

Started off with a sawzall, screwdriver set and a hammer.

Now the business makes over six figures a year, still no business "plan".