Sterling Silver Question

[DaleCarr103]

Hi all,

I've been a member for a few weeks now and have learned so much from this site my head is about to explode. I've studied the processes and tried a few will small quantaties to see which ones work the best for me and my budget. (I'm not in this to get rich....I'm retired and interested in it to learn and for hobby). My question is this. I have a small amount of Sterling Silver Rings and other jewelry that i would like to refine. These are not plated they are Solid .925. I am wondering what process to use formula wise to dissolve it. Will the Poor Mans AR do the job? I'm not sure about this cuz most of the process I've seen explained here are dealing with the silver that is combined with Gold recovery.

Thanks for any Help or advise you can give me.

Dale

 

[goldsilverpro]

You can not dissolve silver in AR, whether it's poor man's AR or the real thing. Poor man's nitric acid will work, kind of.

 

[butcher]

DaleCarr103,

I think most people here would be reluctant to give short advice to your question, the reason being is we cannot cover everything you would need to know to keep you and others around you safe.

From your question it is obvious you have done very little study.

My suggestion is to study dealing with waste in the safety section, while studying in this section study as much as you can about dealing with the deadly fumes you will encounter.

Silver is fairly easy to recover from the sterling silver (separating most of the copper from the silver) using nitric acid and water, (this acid produces deadly corrosive fumes), poor mans nitric acid can be made, but for it to work well with silver you would be best to learn to distill it, distilling in itself can be dangerous if you do not learn to do it safely, and learn its dangers.

Once the silver is recovered it will need to be refined, for this you will need to learn about electrolysis and refining in a silver cell, and how to operate it.

If your silver is marked .925 it is recognizable and can easily be sold as sterling with a defined price, once you melt dissolve or alter the sterling you have no marking to say what its value is, basically in some ways making it harder to sell in an open market.

You also have a lot to learn to be able to recover and refine your silver.

Only you can decide if this is something you are willing to spend years studying and learning (possibly for little profit if any).

If it is I would suggest putting up your sterling for now and reading Hoke's book and studying the forum, you may wish to use the sterling to refine gold with...

In any case to help you, my suggestion is to spend your time studying, that is where you will profit and learn to recover and refine precious metals, otherwise your profit will come from selling your sterling as it is now.

In any case hanging on to your silver as long as you can or until the price is higher, will make you more in the long run.

If you just want a higher grade of silver one of our fine members will trade your sterling silver for .999 silver rounds, look in the for sale or trade section.

Welcome to the forum. Here you can learn a fun hobby, it does take a lot of study which in many ways is where a lot of the enjoyment is, from getting an education in this science and art, to learn about these fascinating metals, and from discussing and sharing what we learn, and learning From a great group of people on this wonderful forum.

Welcome to the forum Dale, Hope you do stick around and learn, it has been a hobby I find fascinating, and enjoyable, I hope you stick around and begin your study, and enjoy it as much as we do.

 

[DaleCarr103]

Thanks for the advice and the comments. I've heard you give the same advice on just about every thread in this forum. I didn't ask the question because I haven't done my studying. As a matter of fact I ask it because what I have studied. On another thread people were discussing how to cement Silver. Sue replied with the solid copper. Thats what I understood and what I have always done. Then the next post someone said that was rediculous because Silver will not go into AR because of the acid. So what I was trying to understand was......If the Silver won't go into AR.....then how do we Dissolve it without Acid? I know its a salt when doing a Gold recovery.

I have done my studying and this sitw has taught me more in 2 weeks than I learned in 2 months surfing the web for info. I already run a Gold cell and my 12v PSU I power it with came from this site. I don't do ANYTHING till I have all the safety equipment and full knowledge of what I'm doing.

Dale

 

[4metals]

Maybe Buthcer gives the same advice but it is, without exception, always warranted. Your question eeks of your lack of understanding of the process and your lack of research.

Everything you need to know to do this is here on this site, you won't buy yourself a lot of assistance unless you lose your attitude.

 

[sri steve]

Dale: I do not know what you have been studying but I would advise you to read the Hoke book, this book can be obtained through this forum by searching.

Pay attention to the part on silver refining, it will tell you everything you need to know and the dangers that come with refining silver.

Cementing with copper is a tried and tested process but still needs skills for it to work properly; there are few different ways of refining silver all need skill to obtain 999+ silver.

I have refined silver a few different ways and I am not going to say what is the best way, as all have their own opinions, I personally use sodium formate but this is another story.

You say you have done a few processes? Did they not work out? You didn’t say what you’ve tried?.

The processes for silver and gold are completely different that’s why you have to read the Hoke book, this is the bible on refining.
Good luck and be safe.

 

[DaleCarr103]

I have CM Hokes book and have read thru it once. I downloaded the printable version the first day I got on here. Plan on reading it a second time just to get thing planted firmly. I wasn't trying to sound like I have an attitude cause I don't. I was asking the question so I could learn because I had run into a thread that got me confused.

I haven't done any process yet. I have my fume hood built and ready and all my Safety gear. I got a Gold cell built and tested. But thats as far as I've gotten.

If I have to be a chemist to ask a question I won't be asking very many.

Thanks for the reply though.

Dale

 

[Shark]

You can not dissolve silver in AR, whether it's poor man's AR or the real thing. Poor man's nitric acid will work, kind of.

There is the answer. Nitric acid.

I cannot say from first had knowledge about real nitric, I have never used it. I also have never done a lot of silver, just a few test trials to get a feel for it. I used home made nitric in my tests, and have had reasonably good results, for a newbie. Since you say you have the safety items needed I will attempt a short explanation, ( rely on more experienced advice is suggested and recommended )

Nitric. Water. Copper.

Silver into nitric (along with water, depends quite a bit on the variety and concentration of the nitric used) until it goes completely into solution.

Copper to cement the silver back out of solution. (solid copper bar, such as a buss bar is recommended, other flat solid copper will work)

Water to rinse the cemented silver.

Dry, and your good to go for a very basic process that will improve the quality over .925 quite a bit (if you do your part right). If you seek higher purity, then there is quite a bit more involved. Nitric acid is hazardous, it does need to be respected as such.

Nitric will only take in so much metals, there is a formula to calculate the amount need for a known amount of silver, or sterling and other silver metal mixes. I don't have that formula off the top of my head, but it can be found fairly easy.



I think some of the confusion comes from the choice of wording in your original post. Took a few runs at it to reach a point that I think what I added is what your basically after.

 

[AndyWilliams]

As a matter of fact I ask it because what I have studied. On another thread people were discussing how to cement Silver. Sue replied with the solid copper. Thats what I understood and what I have always done. Then the next post someone said that was rediculous because Silver will not go into AR because of the acid. So what I was trying to understand was......If the Silver won't go into AR.....then how do we Dissolve it without Acid? I know its a salt when doing a Gold recovery.

I have done my studying and this sitw has taught me more in 2 weeks than I learned in 2 months surfing the web for info. I already run a Gold cell and my 12v PSU I power it with came from this site. I don't do ANYTHING till I have all the safety equipment and full knowledge of what I'm doing.

Dale

If you are confused by a post in a thread, you should ask your question there. That helps others by allowing them to actually read the post you think is confusing, without adding another thread to wade through for those performing searches. It makes the site easier to use while allowing for others to help clear up any confusion you may have.

And the reason the advice is always the same is because the answer already exists on this forum. It's a bit presumptuous to think you've done your studying when that period of studying was accomplished in two weeks. Try to understand why AR doesn't work, why it can't work, and then think about why it would be foolish to use, even if it did work. Knowing those answers doesn't even get to what I would call a basic knowledge of refining. You have a lot more studying ahead, much more than the two weeks you've already put in.

 

[DaleCarr103]

Thanks Shark.....I never have been one for tact sometimes....I don't mean anything by it. I saw Silver's answer up there. Thanks for that. Yes the process you just described is what I was looking at doing at some point. Real small scale just to get the feel of it. And so I am assuming that since its acid, it will have to be Neutralized with Urea before you can Cement it with the copper. Otherwise it would just keep going back into Solution. I think that straightens my thoughts and the confusion is cleared up in my memory banks.

I have made my own Nitric Acid also. I want to get a better setup to be able to get a stronger purity though. I plan on using the add a little at a time method so I don't end up with a bunch of surplus I have to neutralize.

Thanks Again
Dale

 

[goldsilverpro]

And so I am assuming that since its acid, it will have to be Neutralized with Urea before you can Cement it with the copper.

No, no, no, no, no. No urea!!! Just put the copper bars in the solution. If you used too much nitric, the extra will dissolve copper before the silver starts precipitating. If you want good results, just let it happen.

 

[Shark]

I use mainly the basic, most commonly recommend chemicals. Urea isn't one of them, but I have done a bit of research on the subject and will say I am not ready to use it, and may never be. With a little searching you will find a safer alternative to it when you need to neutralize nitric. In this process, you do not want to kill the nitric, you still need it to work for the cemetation process. I am not a chemist, but as the copper is removed from the bar and into solution, the silver can not stay in solution so it drops out, or "cements" onto the copper. That is the best way I can describe it. It is a very interesting thing to see, as when done right, you can actually watch it happening. As goldsilverpro said, if you use to much, just add more copper, if needed. You will never go wrong following his advice, in my opinion. As a friendly reminder, you can never do to much research, and there are volumes of tried and proven methods here, just not always easy to find the one your looking for. I have learned more on other processes at times while getting sidetracked than the subject I was working on.

AndyWilliams gave a great piece of advice as well. By doing as he suggests you not only help yourself, you help those that follow after you looking for the same information.

 

[butcher]

Dale,
If you refine gold, you may consider saving your sterling for use in that process.

I have to apologize, it probably does sound like I give the same advice over and over to new members, but the questions to me are basically always the same, and in my mind seem to beg the same answers to help them get going.

I could not see where giving you a partial answer to your question would be very helpful, it would not cover all of the details you need to know.

I could have said, mix nitric 70% nitric acid with equal volumes of distilled water and dissolve your silver, then cement with a clean copper buss bar, wash the cemented silver till the rinse water does not test for dissolved copper, then melt your silver to anode bars and electrically refine the silver in a silver cell.

But that answer does not give you much to go by, it does not tell you of the dangers involved, or how to avoid them, it does not tell you of the problems you may face with poor mans nitric acid, or cover any of the many details of the processes, that you would need to recover and refine your silver, so basically unless I could write all of the needed details it would not help you much, you would either have to try doing this project with little information to go by, and then ask more questions as you run into problems along the way, possibly putting yourself in danger, or you would need to study the process for yourself to get more information than I (or others) can provide in a simple post or thread.

Many new members believe they just need a simple step by step instruction to follow and would have the information they need to recover and refine a metal.

I tend to believe that written instructions like that would not be helpful unless the reader already understood many of the basic principles, and had a basic knowledge and good understanding of everything he would be dealing with. Understanding the dangers of the reactions, the basic process and why each step was described as it was, understanding why it was done one way instead of another. Knowing what to do if his trial did not respond as described in the steps provided in the instruction sheet. and how to overcome or correct a problem when it reared it ugly head.

A basic tutorial can be helpful for some one who understood the process to help them not forget a step in a process, but would not be very helpful to the beginner who had no understanding of the basic principles, or who had no basic understanding of the process as a whole.

Dale,
Basically to me there is only one answer to these questions.
To learn this we need to study the information provided by the forum.

 

[sri steve]

Dale, Basically to me there is only one answer to these questions. To learn this we need to study the information provided by the forum.

This says it all, you can try little experiments ( this is good practise ), its not easy for anybody to sit here and tell you from start to finish on a process, it would take hours and as you will see when you start processing.

I believe nitric is expensive and difficult to obtain in the US, over here in the UK, HNO3 (nitric) in easy to obtain and cheap about £2.00 per lt.

Has you've been told that if you use to much nitric it will not harm anything but the downside is it will take more copper into solution and when you come to cementing part of the process can result in an higher contamination of copper mixed with your silver.

It Takes 1.17 ml of 70% HNO3 (nitric) and 1.17 ml of 100% H2O (distilled) to dissolve 1g of pure Silver, the best way is to take a small amount of silver scrap, cleaned washed, you can boil it in water to remove any contaminants, weight? then calculate using the above figures.

place into beaker, fill with water then add 1/4 of the amount of nitric needed (do this part with cold solution) after the reaction as stopped give it a good stirring if it starts a reaction wait until its finished.

At this point you need to place the beaker onto a hotplate and heat it and stir it a couple of times until there is no reactions, now remove watch glass and add very small amount of nitric stir, do this until there is a very small amount of scrap left at the bottom of the beaker.

let the solution cool down ( overnight best ) and filter your solution, remembering that you have silver left and put his into your next process.

Now you are ready to cement your silver out with copper, all the above process must be done in well ventilated area.

 

[DaleCarr103]

Dale,

If you refine gold, you may consider saving your sterling for use in that process.

Thats what I was planning on doing. You are reffering to the Enquarting Process right?

I have to apologize, it probably does sound like I give the same advice over and over to new members, but the questions to me are basically always the same, and in my mind seem to beg the same answers to help them get going.

Hope this quote thing works.....Never done this before. Butcher I think that came out the wrong way in type. After reading it again, I meant that as a compliment not being sarcastic. And I was being vague on my question just wanting aa quick answer so as not to take up very much of any ones time.


:roll: Well I got half of the quote right. Thanks Butcher for the Help. I don't want to be a chemist or anything but I do want to understand whats going on in front of me and the dangers of it.
I even Printed out Hokes Book last night so it would be easier to have it near by. Easier than running to the computer to read all the time.

Dale

 

[DaleCarr103]

Dale, Basically to me there is only one answer to these questions. To learn this we need to study the information provided by the forum.

This says it all, you can try little experiments ( this is good practise ), its not easy for anybody to sit here and tell you from start to finish on a process, it would take hours and as you will see when you start processing.

I believe nitric is expensive and difficult to obtain in the US, over here in the UK, HNO3 (nitric) in easy to obtain and cheap about £2.00 per lt.

Has you've been told that if you use to much nitric it will not harm anything but the downside is it will take more copper into solution and when you come to cementing part of the process can result in an higher contamination of copper mixed with your silver.

It Takes 1.17 ml of 70% HNO3 (nitric) and 1.17 ml of 100% H2O (distilled) to dissolve 1g of pure Silver, the best way is to take a small amount of silver scrap, cleaned washed, you can boil it in water to remove any contaminants, weight? then calculate using the above figures.

place into beaker, fill with water then add 1/4 of the amount of nitric needed (do this part with cold solution) after the reaction as stopped give it a good stirring if it starts a reaction wait until its finished.

At this point you need to place the beaker onto a hotplate and heat it and stir it a couple of times until there is no reactions, now remove watch glass and add very small amount of nitric stir, do this until there is a very small amount of scrap left at the bottom of the beaker.

let the solution cool down ( overnight best ) and filter your solution, remembering that you have silver left and put his into your next process.

Now you are ready to cement your silver out with copper, all the above process must be done in well ventilated area.

Thanks Steve, All that sounds like a Winner. pretty much everything I will do will be on a small scale. Small experiments will be the way I go for now till I get the routines and the Safety stuff down. I'm on a limited income being retired and disabled so I built my own Fume Hood. Looks kinda funny but it works great. My small Shop Vac powers it. Little on the loud side but hey, I'm still breathing. Nitric is so high here and so hard to get anywhere but the Net that I have learned to make my own. I'm getting the equipment to do the Cold Vial Method for a cleaner stronger result. I just make it as I need it. One less Nasty sitting around that way. Again thanks for the help and the time. Back to reading.

Dale

 

[Shark]

Just to be clear, what I posted is not meant to be a "how to", not by any means. There are quite a few additional things that needs to be dealt with in an actual tutorial.

The reason for it was because when I first started, I read everything I could find until I thought I had it down reasonably well in my mind. Then after more reading things seemed to become mixed up, some from new people adding in their ideas, and some from other posts doing things another way. I also became confused and had to stop and think, reread some posts and concentrated more toward what the senior members had posted, skimming over the posts from the less experienced. I just kept at it until it started to become clear again. I only worked on one process at a time until I became confident enough to work with it. Then move to another another process.

Also, there are so many little tricks and tips that will save a ton of headaches and time, that all the extra reading is well worth the effort. Everything from filtering, washing, decanting, just a long list of useful extras. From simple as an air source on up. With out butcher, lazersteve and metalic mario I would still be trying to source nitric acid just to get started. Without the many senior members who posted tutorials and tips, I would still be spending weeks to do things I now do in days, sometime less. Sometimes it is good to question what we think we know because sometimes we don't know what we think we do. Learning is life, strive to never stop learning. We have to learn to crawl before we can walk, we have to learn to walk before we can run, everything needs to be taken in steps one step at a time. Studying is the first of many steps.

 

[DaleCarr103]

Just to be clear, what I posted is not meant to be a "how to", not by any means. There are quite a few additional things that needs to be dealt with in an actual tutorial.

The reason for it was because when I first started, I read everything I could find until I thought I had it down reasonably well in my mind. Then after more reading things seemed to become mixed up, some from new people adding in their ideas, and some from other posts doing things another way. I also became confused and had to stop and think, reread some posts and concentrated more toward what the senior members had posted, skimming over the posts from the less experienced. I just kept at it until it started to become clear again. I only worked on one process at a time until I became confident enough to work with it. Then move to another another process.

Also, there are so many little tricks and tips that will save a ton of headaches and time, that all the extra reading is well worth the effort. Everything from filtering, washing, decanting, just a long list of useful extras. From simple as an air source on up. With out butcher, lazersteve and metalic mario I would still be trying to source nitric acid just to get started. Without the many senior members who posted tutorials and tips, I would still be spending weeks to do things I now do in days, sometime less. Sometimes it is good to question what we think we know because sometimes we don't know what we think we do. Learning is life, strive to never stop learning. We have to learn to crawl before we can walk, we have to learn to walk before we can run, everything needs to be taken in steps one step at a time. Studying is the first of many steps.

I know exactly what you mean. I've read so many posts and watched so many videos that it had got to a jumbled mess inside my head. But I've went back to reading Hoke's book for the second time and now alot of things are starting to fall into place. I think I need to stick with the standard steps and learn them well before I try any tricks so to speak. There are just so many people out there giving tutorial videos on different ways to do the same thing that you don't know who knows what they are doing anymore.

Again....Thanks so much for the Help and Advice

 

[FrugalRefiner]

I know exactly what you mean. I've read so many posts and watched so many videos that it had got to a jumbled mess inside my head. But I've went back to reading Hoke's book for the second time and now alot of things are starting to fall into place. I think I need to stick with the standard steps and learn them well before I try any tricks so to speak. There are just so many people out there giving tutorial videos on different ways to do the same thing that you don't know who knows what they are doing anymore.

Again....Thanks so much for the Help and Advice

Dale,

That is a natural part of the learning curve. I've gone through it as well. As you start reading, you feel like you understand it all. As you read more, you start to read conflicting information and get confused. You'll know you're ready to start processing when you read new posts and you know how to answer the question. Not just think you know an answer, but when you know you can give a good answer.

There is a lot of misinformation out there. I wouldn't trust youtube videos unless they're made by members of this forum. Even on the forum, there is a lot of misinformation. There are thing discussed in old posts, like using urea to neutralize nitric acid, that are no loger recommended because there are better methods. Some new members join and start posting about methods before they've learned there are better ways. I've read many books, including those recommended on the forum, that have errors.

Learning to refine is much like refining. You have to process a lot of information to get to the values. When you've read enough, you'll recognize good information from bad.

Dave