Topher_osAUrus
Well-known member
Irons said:Just rode hard and put away wet. :mrgreen:
Lol.
Thats my life story summed up in 7 words
Irons said:Just rode hard and put away wet. :mrgreen:
solar_plasma said:Göran wrote:- Will it remove nitric salts even if there is no other acid presents?
Would be easy to test: Then it would precipitate sulfates with Pb(NO3)2 or Ba(NO3)2 . I doubt. If I don't forget it, I'll try this next time in the lab.
The others have covered the sulfamic threads that I know of, so I'll skip this one.g_axelsson said:- So, post links to any good sulfamic acid threads, tips on how to use it... Lazersteve apparently uses it in dry form. Is that better than making a solution and add it in liquid form?
I use mine, as you correctly quoted from my previous post, in dry crystal form directly into the AR or nitric containing solution. I never check the temperature, but try to add it as soon as the AR finishes it's work on the scrap/Au powder (still warm). I also use it to test my waste for the presence of nitric/nitrates to determine which one of my waste stream drums the waste goes into. I do this because I reuse the solutions containing nitric until they no longer have active acid that can be used for dissolving base metals. I use the left over nitric solutions for digesting high base metal content scrap. Additionally, Copper nitrate solutions can be converted back to usable nitric acid with electricity and graphite/copper electrodes as discussed here : Copper Nitrate to Nitric Acid. Typically silver and palladium reactions produce recyclable solutions after the metals are removed. Leftover AR digestion solutions generally do not get reused/recycled.g_axelsson said:- Should it be used in a hot or cold solution, is it working fast enough to notice in cold diluted nitric acid.
In my experience it remove nitric acid and nitrous acids. I've never experimented with pure nitrate salt solutions to see if it actually works, but I'm pretty sure it only works if there is a free acid in the solution. Try dissolving sodium nitrate in distilled water and add sulfamic acid, if you get a fizzing reaction then it likely works with all neutral salt solutions too.g_axelsson said:- Will it remove nitric salts even if there is no other acid presents?
I feel stirring is a must. If you do not stir then the sulfamic crystals are slow to dissolve and react. Stirring also exposes the solution to the sulfamic acid as it dissolves. There have been many instances where I have added sulfamic acid without stirring and waited for the initial fizzing reaction to cease, then I stirred and the reaction kicked up again. On this subject: It is important that you perform your sulfamic and SMB reactions with pregnant solutions in a larger catch vessel so that you do not have a loss due to vigorous fizzing which causes overflows. A vigorous sulfamic reaction can easily quadruple the volume of a pregnant AR solution. I use a clean 5 gallon bucket as a catch basin for 4 Liter and smaller flasks. I use a large 25 gallon rectangular plastic tub as a catch basin for 5 gallon bucket reactions.g_axelsson said:- Is it vital or even needed to stir the solution?
I do not measure my sulfamic acid additions as I have no idea how much nitric acid is free in the pregnant AR. Instead I use visual cues to guide me.g_axelsson said:- How much is needed for each ml of 70% nitric acid.
Foam over is the primary concern I have when using sulfamic acid.g_axelsson said:- Any drawbacks?
See my process description above.g_axelsson said:- Describe how you are using it and cues to when you have added enough.
I buy it in 50# bags from chemistrystore.com . This last me about 1 year with my workload lately.g_axelsson said:- I have bought a small package on eBay, any tips on where you can get it and how much it should cost in various package sizes?
Geo said:Other than a boil over depending on the amount of free nitric in solution, not much, really. Just like any liquid, you can only add so much salt until it is saturated. When it becomes saturated, no more will dissolve. I've never witnessed any adverse effects on the gold recovery, no matter how much I added. Too, you can always add a bit more water. If you evaporate the solution, you can get some crystals formed. Adding water will cause these to dissolve.
jeneje said:Evaporation, evaporation, evaporation!! :idea:
Ken
Almost spot on, I wanted this thread to be a place to collect information about using sulfamic to denox solutions. But for that sake it isn't wrong to mention that there are alternatives to sulfamic. What is the best option for you all depends on your situation.Topher_osAUrus said:I think Goran wanted the spirit of this thread as a composed sideline of information to be accessed when people are in a rush and dump in the nitric, or use metal nitrates, or (as you said) are doing stuff like sweeps, chips, incinerated stuff, filters, whatever.. Where excess is a necessary evil.
Lou said:It comes back to bite you during waste treatment as it is a chelator
Interesting text, although 1 page in English and 238 in German feels a bit heavy to read in one go. :lol:solar_plasma said:If you only add a nearly stoichiometric ammount to remove nitric, I can't see, where it could form chelates in the waste treatment, if it isn't there. Further at least silver sulfamate has been shown to cement on zinc. But if it would not cement out on copper, this would in deed be a problem for the stock pot treatment.
Sulfamic acid derivates of Ag, PGM and other metals
Summary
This work deals with the syntheses and investigations of complex compounds with derivatives of the sulphate ion. The work focuses mainly on compounds with benzenepolysulphonates.
Conversion of tetrachloroplatinates with sulfamic acid leads to A2[PtCl2(NH2SO3)2]·xH2O (A = K, Rb, NH4; x = 0 or 2). The coordination of the platinum ions occurs both in cis- and trans-configuration. K2[Pt(NH2SO3)4]·2H2O is synthesised by reaction of K2[PtCl2(NH2SO3)2] with silver chloride.
The reactions of diverse benzenepolysulphonic acids and metallic salts under modified reaction conditions lead to a variety of complex compounds. Dimerisation occurs in 0∞{[Cd(m-BDS)2/2(H2O)4]2} (m-BDS = 1,3-benzenedisulphonate), chains are build up in 1∞[Cu(p-BDS)2/2(H2O)4] (p-BDS = 1,4-benzenedisulphonate), 1∞[Cu(p-BDSCl4)2/2(H2O)4] (p-BDSCl4 = 2,3,4,5-Tetrachloro-1,4-benzenedisulphonate) and 1∞[Zn(p-BDSCl4)2/2(DMF)4]. Layers exist in 2∞[Cu(BTS)2/3(H2O)4]3⋅4H2O (BTS = 1,3,5-benzeneltrisulphonate), 2∞[La(BTS)4/4(H2O)5] and 2∞[Zn(p-BDS)4/4(DMF)2]. Using 1,2,4,5-benzenetetrasulphonic acid (BtetraSH4) leads to a ladder structure for 1∞[Cu(BtetraS)2/4(H2O)4]2⋅0,5H2O. The thermal analyses of the water or DMF free compounds show high thermal stability up to 400°C in most cases. The thermal stability of the DMF free compound of [Zn(p-BDS)(DMF)2] is especially noteworthy, it is stable up to 560°C. Additionally, the structural characterisation of the hydrous 1,3-benzendisulphonic acid was possible. The p-benzenedisulphonate ions are deprotonated and occur with oxonium ions as counterions: [p-BDS2-][H3O+]2.
Conversion of sulfanilamide with copper nitrate yields [Cu(NO3)2(H2O)(H2Sulf)2]. Monomeric units are existent in the crystal structure. Quite unusually, the copper ions occur with a sevenfold coordination sphere. This coordination is build up of the monodentate coordination of two sulfanilamide molecules, one water molecule and the bidentate coordination of two nitrate ions.
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