Torches
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AKDan
Well-known member
The type of tip you guys are looking for, for use with Nat gas, Mapp, Propane or acetylene is called a "Rose Bud" It looks much like a cutting tip in that it has multiple holes and the flame coming out the end looks like a Rose Bud in shape. They are not welding tips or cutting tips but are intended for heating/melting only. Actual use is for pre-heating metals before welding. You will get the same type of concentrated heat that you have with a welding tip (single hole) but multiplied over a wider area. No chance of hitting the oxy cutting lever and blowing your material all over the country. They are pretty spendy from what I remember, but probably worth it for not overheating specific spots on your PM, or melting dishes quite so easily. Also, melting will be faster, more consistent, and it is easier to keep the metals liquid when pouring.
Pretty much any gas that will burn, when combined with oxygen, will make the heat needed to melt. It is a question of application and over what time period. As well, any of the fuels will add carbon if the flame is not adjusted to the correct size shape and type. Carbonizing flames will be tri-colored and look soft. Neutral shape should be bi-colored, crisp looking with only very slightly (at the most) feathered edges on the internal cone of the flame. Oxydizing flames will have a very sharp cone shaped internal flame and are noisy with respect to the other two flame types described. Acetylene will self ignite very easily, and under varied conditions. Please do some research before you experiment with your torches. Not a pretty way to go. OXYGEN WILL SELF IGNITE/EXPLODE in the presence of ANY oils. Also not a pleasant experience.
Pretty much any gas that will burn, when combined with oxygen, will make the heat needed to melt. It is a question of application and over what time period. As well, any of the fuels will add carbon if the flame is not adjusted to the correct size shape and type. Carbonizing flames will be tri-colored and look soft. Neutral shape should be bi-colored, crisp looking with only very slightly (at the most) feathered edges on the internal cone of the flame. Oxydizing flames will have a very sharp cone shaped internal flame and are noisy with respect to the other two flame types described. Acetylene will self ignite very easily, and under varied conditions. Please do some research before you experiment with your torches. Not a pretty way to go. OXYGEN WILL SELF IGNITE/EXPLODE in the presence of ANY oils. Also not a pleasant experience.
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AKDan's comments are spot on!donald236 said:
I used the large type Hoke torch he mentioned, and was successful in melting platinum with little effort. I used it for melting my gold powder (using a tip dedicated to that process only), and also for inquarting. You can easily melt 20 troy ounces of metal with the large torch. Keep it in mind if you find yourself processing large volumes. The smaller Hoke torches, or the one you purchased, should serve very well for moderate sized batches of metals.
Harold
I like Hydrogen and 02 for melting as its burns clean and is fast to heat up.
Next to that I would recommend propane and 02 for melting as a general mixture. You can use a bar b que refillable bottle and get them at most hard ware stores or garden supply shops.
When you start a torch set up from ground zero-
1) I recommend buying hoses in the lengths you need with factory fitted end pieces.
2) Next buy a good regulator for the Oxygen and one for the type of gas you are going to use. Ask where you buy the hose they can tell you (welding shop)
3) If you buy used torch equipment be sure and have it thoroughly gone through and cleaned by an expert = we have one in our town and the small cost might just save your life-
4) Anchor the bottles to a wall with a chain if possible. Always have your bottles standing, never lay them on their sides.
4) Bottle/regulator fittings are brass on brass therefore you should not use Teflon tape to stop air gaps from the bottle to the regulator
5) With the bottles connected to the regulators and the torch hoses connected to your regulators , next turn off the torch 02 and gas knobs. Leave the regulator pressure where it doesn't put pressure on the 02 or fuel, then open the bottles and carefully tighten the regulator pressure valves to about 5 lbs.
6) at this time 02/fuel should be coming out of the bottle, through the regulator and into the lines stopping right before knobs for turning on /off the fuel 02 of the torch.
7) get a cup of water and add dishwater soap to it making it sudsy-
8) take a wash rage or paint brush and dip the sudsy water from the cup and then over where the regulator screws onto the bottle - if there is a leak bubbles will keep coming from the area-
8) next check where the hoses connect to the regulator for the same thing-
9) next check for the connections on the on/off knobs of the torch.
If all this checks out then turn off your bottles leaving pressure in the hoses. Then check the necks of each bottle to see that the main cylinder valves are not leaking. If they leak exchange them for a new one- I get about 6 bottle a year that leak at the necks - The company I use once in a while lets them get refilled without checking them for leaks- STUPID!
10) If the necks are good, then turn back on the bottles and open the torch fuel knobs and before you light anything , take the rag and check the area that the handle connects to the body of your torch- If there are no leak, fire it up.
11) At most welding stores you can buy a cheap flame starter aka Flint striker - be sure and buy a packet of spare flints to have when needed-
12) with the flame lit go slow with it and get the feel of the weight of the torch and be sure and concentrate- It is very easy to swing a torch around an burn yourself or something that does not need to be burned.
13) Once you get the feel, then gradually increase your o2 and fuel pressure via the knob on the regulators - Yellow tip flame is reducing and blue tip flame is Oxidizing-
14) When you where at the welding store , you should have bought a good pair of welding goggles and a heavy pair of heat resistant gloves.
15) Never wear loose clothing or wear a tie when you are working with a torch-
16) any powders or liquids you want to use be sure and remove the lids and place these in position prior to lighting your torch.
17) If you are going to make shot out of your inquartation do it in small batches at a time, then do a pour from a higher position (stand on a steady step stool with another person there to help you and hand you the torch into a tub of ice cold water- A horse watering steel trough or a 55 gallon barrel will work well also- Some folks like to agitate the water also - As long as the end result are open type kernels of inquarted gold who cares how pretty they - so long as they get the job done-
If you use natural gas as your fuel- it is hard to get enough pressure to make it worth anything for large melts- City gas comes to homes in oz rather than in lbs. When I set up my new shop the city installed a high pressure line for me for a added fee- makes all the difference in the world- If you cannot get a high pressure line from your gas company there are devices you can buy that are called "line boosters". Ri0 Grande supply in AZ sells these -
When you are done, ALWAYS turn off your bottles and bleed your lines.
I am sure I may ave missed a thing or two so please feel free to add your .02ct-
Next to that I would recommend propane and 02 for melting as a general mixture. You can use a bar b que refillable bottle and get them at most hard ware stores or garden supply shops.
When you start a torch set up from ground zero-
1) I recommend buying hoses in the lengths you need with factory fitted end pieces.
2) Next buy a good regulator for the Oxygen and one for the type of gas you are going to use. Ask where you buy the hose they can tell you (welding shop)
3) If you buy used torch equipment be sure and have it thoroughly gone through and cleaned by an expert = we have one in our town and the small cost might just save your life-
4) Anchor the bottles to a wall with a chain if possible. Always have your bottles standing, never lay them on their sides.
4) Bottle/regulator fittings are brass on brass therefore you should not use Teflon tape to stop air gaps from the bottle to the regulator
5) With the bottles connected to the regulators and the torch hoses connected to your regulators , next turn off the torch 02 and gas knobs. Leave the regulator pressure where it doesn't put pressure on the 02 or fuel, then open the bottles and carefully tighten the regulator pressure valves to about 5 lbs.
6) at this time 02/fuel should be coming out of the bottle, through the regulator and into the lines stopping right before knobs for turning on /off the fuel 02 of the torch.
7) get a cup of water and add dishwater soap to it making it sudsy-
8) take a wash rage or paint brush and dip the sudsy water from the cup and then over where the regulator screws onto the bottle - if there is a leak bubbles will keep coming from the area-
8) next check where the hoses connect to the regulator for the same thing-
9) next check for the connections on the on/off knobs of the torch.
If all this checks out then turn off your bottles leaving pressure in the hoses. Then check the necks of each bottle to see that the main cylinder valves are not leaking. If they leak exchange them for a new one- I get about 6 bottle a year that leak at the necks - The company I use once in a while lets them get refilled without checking them for leaks- STUPID!
10) If the necks are good, then turn back on the bottles and open the torch fuel knobs and before you light anything , take the rag and check the area that the handle connects to the body of your torch- If there are no leak, fire it up.
11) At most welding stores you can buy a cheap flame starter aka Flint striker - be sure and buy a packet of spare flints to have when needed-
12) with the flame lit go slow with it and get the feel of the weight of the torch and be sure and concentrate- It is very easy to swing a torch around an burn yourself or something that does not need to be burned.
13) Once you get the feel, then gradually increase your o2 and fuel pressure via the knob on the regulators - Yellow tip flame is reducing and blue tip flame is Oxidizing-
14) When you where at the welding store , you should have bought a good pair of welding goggles and a heavy pair of heat resistant gloves.
15) Never wear loose clothing or wear a tie when you are working with a torch-
16) any powders or liquids you want to use be sure and remove the lids and place these in position prior to lighting your torch.
17) If you are going to make shot out of your inquartation do it in small batches at a time, then do a pour from a higher position (stand on a steady step stool with another person there to help you and hand you the torch into a tub of ice cold water- A horse watering steel trough or a 55 gallon barrel will work well also- Some folks like to agitate the water also - As long as the end result are open type kernels of inquarted gold who cares how pretty they - so long as they get the job done-
If you use natural gas as your fuel- it is hard to get enough pressure to make it worth anything for large melts- City gas comes to homes in oz rather than in lbs. When I set up my new shop the city installed a high pressure line for me for a added fee- makes all the difference in the world- If you cannot get a high pressure line from your gas company there are devices you can buy that are called "line boosters". Ri0 Grande supply in AZ sells these -
When you are done, ALWAYS turn off your bottles and bleed your lines.
I am sure I may ave missed a thing or two so please feel free to add your .02ct-
istari9
Well-known member
As a welder with 25 years experience I would not choose a Rose Bud uses too much gas at too high a pressure. I would consider a welding tip they are designed to heat hot enough. Also remember the temp gold vaporizes, you may find that important.
There are two types of hoses for torches one is a heavy duty type which is great for going from tanks to the work the other is a smaller more flexible type. This gives an easier movement at the torch. Is very easy to burn your self fighting the heavier hose at the torch.
I also suggest buying some back flow preventers, they are a nice safety feature. For those of you not familiar with the melting and control of melted metals, I would suggest using some steel to melt for practice. It would familiarize you with torch operation and control.
I own and use an air gas torch, for lighter welding projects like soldering and such. I personally would use the oxy/gas mix for a bit hotter flame and more control. Make sure your cutting tip or welding tips are clean before you start work, a clean tip has a dirty sound.
Ray
There are two types of hoses for torches one is a heavy duty type which is great for going from tanks to the work the other is a smaller more flexible type. This gives an easier movement at the torch. Is very easy to burn your self fighting the heavier hose at the torch.
I also suggest buying some back flow preventers, they are a nice safety feature. For those of you not familiar with the melting and control of melted metals, I would suggest using some steel to melt for practice. It would familiarize you with torch operation and control.
I own and use an air gas torch, for lighter welding projects like soldering and such. I personally would use the oxy/gas mix for a bit hotter flame and more control. Make sure your cutting tip or welding tips are clean before you start work, a clean tip has a dirty sound.
Ray
I've known a ton of professional refiners and, without exception, they all preferred a rosebud tip for torch melting gold.
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I agree. The difference is that the rosebud generally is for Hoke type torch, not a welding torch. That type torch is troubling, to say the least.goldsilverpro said:
I used a Hoke type for years and found it to be excellent for melting, a huge step up from the common bench Hoke torch.
I don't claim to understand the differences between those made for the jewelry industry and the welding industry, but many of the problems of the typical rose bud don't seem to be a problem with a Hoke torch. I recommend the Hoke torch highly.
Harold
istari9
Well-known member
I must needs look into that (RoseBud) and ck it out. Thanks for the tip!
Ray
Ray
Harold, when you recommend the Hoke torch w/ natural gas, is that gas at the pressure delivered up the pipes at 'standard' household pressure (because I know that industry often has it metered up much higher)?
If I can get an O2 setup with the Hoke torch, plus valves and regulators, and run it off city gas, (plus get the city to pay for it :twisted: ) then I'd be all set...
(get' em to pay for the O2 this coming winter, too...)
If I can get an O2 setup with the Hoke torch, plus valves and regulators, and run it off city gas, (plus get the city to pay for it :twisted: ) then I'd be all set...
(get' em to pay for the O2 this coming winter, too...)
qst42know
Well-known member
Some of your melt problems are related to your regulator settings. They should always be in a two to one ratio. 7 psi gas and 14 oxygen is about minimum and will cover almost any job except heavy cutting or large rosebuds. Adjust your regulators with the torch valves open a bit so the reading are true when operating. A reducing flame is a soft quiet flame with two feathers at the tip, a little more oxy and the feathers just blend together into a neutral flame, a bit more oxygen for an oxidizing flame the feather sharpens brightens and has an angry hiss to it. Don't bury the tip in the work and take your time. Steves avitar has a nice roll to it not to far and not to close. You can hold your metal at this point and practice moving it around nice and fluid then you know its well blended.
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In my case, I had one pound delivery (at the torch, and at the melting furnaces), and regulated down (to I think 4 ounces) at the two furnaces that heated that side of the castle. What ever is considered normal for residential is what I had, just in case I am wrong with stating it was 4 ounces.scwiers said:
The one pound delivery was at special request, and mandated I must regulate to lower pressure for commercially available residential heating appliances.
Pressure isn't as much an issue as volume, which is why gas piping is so large. With low pressure (4 ounces), if you provide a large enough pipe, the pressure won't be an issue. I would expect that you could get by nicely with 3/4" pipe, maybe even ½".
Torches that are intended to be used on natural gas are gauged accordingly (tips for natural gas are different from tips for other fuels). You should be able to achieve success with standard delivery. Many of the benchmen use natural gas for their torches with no problems. Could be one of them would chime in if I've missed the boat here. I'm guilty of having been away from my old installation for many years now, and memory is growing dim.
One thing I will assure you is you won't be sorry to have a natural gas supply. The only negative is it's worthless for smoking molds when casting ingots. I had to use my oxy/acet rig for that purpose, but I didn't regularly cast ingots. Virtually all of the gold I dispensed was in the form of shot, which is preferred by those that use gold for making jewelry.
No regulator required for natural gas. Install a gas valve with the proper connection for your hose (I used the acetylene hose, connected to a hose barb with a hose clamp (the barb mounted directly in the valve). It's already regulated. You'll discover that the cost of fuel is negligible, even if you use your torch regularly. Oxygen will be the most costly, and even that isn't bad. I used to run for about three weeks on a large (245 cu. ft.) bottle of oxygen, and I was refining on a constant basis. I was getting the bottle filled for about $16. A small bottle, used intermittently, may last you for many months.
Remember, I used my torch not only for melting (inquartation and melting pure gold), but for assistance in incinerating waste materials. My torch got used considerably, daily.
If you're interested, I have posted, below, a picture of my hood. If you look closely, you'll see how the torch was hooked up. The regulator was for oxygen, with the gas valve more or less hidden behind the oxygen regulator. The torch is next to the hood. Sorry for the messy appearance. The lab, by now, was in total disrepair and in bad need of painting. Picture was taken just before everything was removed after selling the business.
Notice the staining and general corrosion on everything. That's the result of ten years of constant use, even with the hood operating almost non-stop.
Hope some of this helps.
Let us know how it goes if you venture forth.
Harold
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natural gas pressure comes into play when you need a hot flame for melting platinum - If you do not want to wait a long time to melt only a small amount of pt you will need a high pressure natural gas line -
They also make natural gas booster devices which you can buy from Rio Grande
Or better yet - use Hydrogen and Oxygen and you will not be sorry
Propane will work also but having propane tanks in a building is a no no - most codes require that you have a propane tank outside and plum the gas into a building- Propane is a heavy gas and settles lower which is the conern-
They also make natural gas booster devices which you can buy from Rio Grande
Or better yet - use Hydrogen and Oxygen and you will not be sorry
Propane will work also but having propane tanks in a building is a no no - most codes require that you have a propane tank outside and plum the gas into a building- Propane is a heavy gas and settles lower which is the conern-
I've used H2/O2 quite a bit. It was nice but I hated not being able to see the flame. I think my all time favorite is natural gas. Acetylene is dirty, but like Harold said, it's great for smoking molds. I can easily live with acetylene, if I'm only melting gold. Basically, I'm not a torch person, although I have torch melted 1000s of ounces of gold. I love a natural gas crucible furnace most of all. Fast (after it's hot), large capacity, you can easily clean up off-purity gold, and you can easily melt silver or copper, also.
