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Non-Chemical Ugly Brown stuff on top when I pour 14 K bars

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qst42know said:
I have no precious metal rolling experience and I'm sure someone else will advise you but when rolling karat gold you may have to anneal this every so often to prevent the cracking as you are reducing it's thickness and a last time before you try your dies. Cold working it as in rolling will make it harder.
That's spot on you need to anneal your metal and not try to reduce the thickness to fast or cracking is almost certain to occur. If your using hand rolls this is a long job and even when you get to the thickness you want you might find the sheet has blemishes which will ruin your coins especially if the alloy is suspect and sorry to sound negative but striking the coins is going to require a big press to get a decent finish and image. It would be a lot easier to cast the coins as I said before or refine the metal and use fine gold to make them as the metal is much more ductile and would be much easier to roll and blank.
 
nickvc said:
That's spot on you need to anneal your metal and not try to reduce the thickness to fast or cracking is almost certain to occur.

What do I need to do to prevent oxidization during annealing?
Like coat bar with a solution of flux? Or if I am under 650 C
is oxidization not much trouble with 15 K gold? I can try the
acid after but I am not very confident my pH reducer really
can deal with it.

Do most people use a torch or an oven for annealing?
Seems like air cooling is best for 15K gold?

nickvc said:
If your using hand rolls this is a long job and even when you get to the thickness you want you might find the sheet has blemishes which will ruin your coins especially if the alloy is suspect and sorry to sound negative but striking the coins is going to require a big press to get a decent finish and image. It would be a lot easier to cast the coins as I said before or refine the metal and use fine gold to make them as the metal is much more ductile and would be much easier to roll and blank.

These are very small 1/10th oz non-coins (around size of a dime) and I have a 50 ton (100,000 lbs) press. Do you think this is too small for 14 K gold? Would it be ok for 24 K gold?

On this island and the next over almost all the gold people buy is 14K gold. I can sell the non-coins cheaper if they are 14K, so I think it will be easier to find customers. I am hoping tourists will buy them and the cheaper it is the easier to get a sort of impulse buy. We have some rich tourists coming here so I think that a $100 Anguilla souvenir can sell. So I think I want to do 14K. Also, the die I have say the non-coin is 14K, so I am kind of committed to that.

Update: This article says "coat the piece with boric acid and alcohol" and quenching into "solution based on sodium bisulfate". My gold is at least 15 K. I guess this is my current plan unless someone has more advice. Oh, what kind of alcohol?
http://www.hooverandstrong.com/blog/archives/107/
 
boric acid and methanol alcohol make a paste then spread with brush before heating with torch or furnace
 
shyknee said:
boric acid and methanol alcohol make a paste then spread with brush before heating with torch or furnace

If methanol alcohol and ethanol alcohol both work, would 70% Isopropyl rubbing alcohol work too? Do you let it dry or does that not matter?
 
does not matter the alcohol burns away instantly any way. I never tried 70%rubbing alcohol ,I would think that 30% water would boil boric off of the gold leaving spots unprotected .
As long as oxygen(air) can not get at the metal their should be no fire scale
 
You can buy 91% isopropyl in most grocery stores or Walmart for a dollar or so a bottle - about the same price as the 70% stuff. It burns quite well. You can also buy 99% isopropyl in drug stores but it costs $4-$5 for the same size bottle. At least, that's been my experience.
 
shyknee said:
does not matter the alcohol burns away instantly any way. I never tried 70%rubbing alcohol ,I would think that 30% water would boil boric off of the gold leaving spots unprotected .
As long as oxygen(air) can not get at the metal their should be no fire scale

Ouch. I went to 2 drug stores and 2 liquor stores (only 2 on island) and the highest percent alcohol I could get was Bicardi 151 at 75% alcohol. Now I am afraid to try this. Not many other places to try, it is a small island.
 
vincecate said:
shyknee said:
does not matter the alcohol burns away instantly any way. I never tried 70%rubbing alcohol ,I would think that 30% water would boil boric off of the gold leaving spots unprotected .
As long as oxygen(air) can not get at the metal their should be no fire scale

Ouch. I went to 2 drug stores and 2 liquor stores (only 2 on island) and the highest percent alcohol I could get was Bicardi 151 at 75% alcohol. Now I am afraid to try this. Not many other places to try, it is a small island.

:lol: Not drinking alcohol, rubbing alcohol.
 
Barren Realms 007 said:
:lol: Not drinking alcohol, rubbing alcohol.

The Bicardi 151and Boric Acid paste worked just fine. Did not get fire scale when annealing. I did 1200 F for 15 minutes, but the bar kept cracking when later rolled again. Annealed one more time and then still got more and more cracking till I gave up. Reading another place after it said 1300 F. And it may be that the bar inside was not really up to that temperature for the whole 15 minutes. Much to learn.

Someone else recommended pouring the gold into a stainless steal container such that I would get a thin layer. I tried that but it did not come out thin. The steal deformed and the gold did not flow all over. And still fire scale. Not sure what temperature I should have been at. Was at 1850 F.

I then melted my refined gold into a small round mold and rolled this nearly pure gold. This did not have fire scale problems nor cracking problems and I never annealed it once. Pure gold seems much easier to deal with than 14K (I also wonder if a round mold reduces the cracking problem when rolling compared to rectangular). Anyway, I now have some coins but they are more than the 14K I had planned on. You can see them at http://gold.ai
I will try 14 K again sometime but probably try to understand more first.

Thanks all for your help.
 
Don't know if any of this might help, but for what it's worth, here's my comments;

All of the cracking problems you are experiencing are directly related to melting old gold. It generally gets contaminated with elements that destroy gold's ductility. Don't recall if it was this thread, or another, but all of this has been discussed before. If you want to process 14K gold, which is perfectly acceptable, you're going to have to start with gold of known ancestry. Even melting solder joints can lead to problems, which eliminates a lot of gold made items.

Annealing happens instantly----there is no need to hold gold at an annealing temperature. Get it dull red and quench in water, which, in your case, will eliminate the boric acid coating that was applied.

If you work with pure gold, you need not worry about fire scale. If you get any, it's because the gold isn't pure. Fire scale is the result of oxidized base metals within the gold alloy. They can be the source of the cracking you have experienced, although I expect that they are just a contributor, not the sole cause. How long you hold gold molten is important. If you can't get your gold up to melting temperature readily, but must heat it endlessly, that can be troublesome. Heating with a reducing flame is the best of all worlds, but it requires a large heat source, for a reducing flame tends to be much colder than an oxidizing flame.

Jewelers that uphold good practice do not melt old gold for re-use, and, indeed, rarely melt their gold more than once. What little gets re-melted tends to be just the sprues from previous castings, which are generally well cleaned in the pickle pot before being melted. The well pickled sprue is generally a small percentage if the gold that is melted, so it is well diluted and consumed by the new castings. By continuing this practice, gold of good quality can be assured, with no waste returned for refining.

For the record, it was VERY common to receive sprues from my customers. If they had the slightest problem with inclusions in their castings, any remaining gold, and even, on occasion, the resulting castings were submitted for refining. Pure gold eliminates a lot of problems.

Someone else recommended pouring the gold into a stainless steal container such that I would get a thin layer. I tried that but it did not come out thin. The steal deformed and the gold did not flow all over. And still fire scale. Not sure what temperature I should have been at. Was at 1850 F.
Nonsense. You can NOT get gold to pour a thin layer, full stop. You should also never pour gold to a metallic surface unless it has been well treated to prevent contact (and soldering) of your gold to the surface. If you want thin gold, it must be rolled. As advised, above, start with gold alloy of proven purity and no multiple melting.

Harold
 
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