Unusual Urea source

[macfixer01]

Hi All,
Just something of interest I stumbled across today. We went into a Walmart store and while there happened to look at the bags of salt for de-icing the driveway this winter. Since we have a dog I also looked at the bottles of their pet-safe de-icer pellets and wondered just what is pet-safe about it when the label says you should wear gloves and wash your hands after handling it? Anyway after scouring the label I finally spotted the contents and it's just Urea. It's in a prilled form and I assume it contains some food coloring that gives it the bluish tint? I don't know how it compares to fertilizer grade Urea in purity or price, however it's available in the winter time when fertilizer may not be?

macfixer01

 

[Geraldo]

I can't say for certainty without a chemical analysis, but I suggest that the urea is probably made in the same plant that produces fertilizer, and is very close to the same stuff. They often add EXTRA ingredients to fertilizers, particularly to slow dissolution, that they probably won't add to de-icing product.

Ingredients that aren't on the de-icing product label but are likely in there are chemicals to prevent clumping or improve flowability (typically a cellulose product like carboxymethlycellulose), and color.

I am a little surprised that they are selling urea as de-icing product. I thought that it was out of favor since it encourages algae blooms in lakes and streams (kinda like how they got rid of phosphates in consumer laundry detergent)?

Best Regards, Gerald

 

[jimmydolittle]

Urea works good for de-icing. I used to buy it at the Farm Bureau Co-op, but for the past several years, I've been unable to get it. It came in 50# bags for about $8.00. It did have trash in it though, back when I was refining, I'd have to pick out what looked like dried manure flecks. I don't think this color would affect your solution though.

it contains some food coloring that gives it the bluish tint? I don't know how it compares to fertilizer grade Urea in purity or price, however it's available in the winter time when fertilizer may not be?

macfixer01

 

[qst42know]

Fertilizer grade urea will always be dirty. There is no need for the manufacturer to keep it clean.

 

[Photobacterium]

speaking of unusual sources of urea - how would one extract urea from urine ?

one of my other hobbies is composting, especially hot composting (use the right materials & the pile heats up to 160 degrees F).

i spent a few months collecting #1 & #2 last spring (until it became, "enough is enough").

over the summer, about 80% of the urine evaporated (YEAH ! i get my white 5 gallon 'food grade' (?) buckets back !)

now i have some nitrogen rich super-smelly water.


hopefully this isn't too off-topic.

 

[publius]

One could try here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2415

Per day, about 1.5 - 2 litres are excreted, consisting of 95% of water. The rest (in grams per day consists of)

# 25 g urea
# 1 g uric acid (metabolic endproduct of purines from DNA)
# 1.5 g creatinine (derived from creatine phosphate, the muscle booster)
# 10 g of salts, mainly NaCl
# 3 g of phosphates, citric acid, oxalic acid,
# milligrams of proteins, and urochromen, which is the compound giving rise to the yellow colour of urine.

Now, looking at this information, what could be the best way of isolating urea from it?

 

[Photobacterium]

One could try here: http://www.sciencemadness.org/talk/viewthread.php?tid=2415

Per day, about 1.5 - 2 litres are excreted, consisting of 95% of water. The rest (in grams per day consists of)

# 25 g urea
# 1 g uric acid (metabolic endproduct of purines from DNA)
# 1.5 g creatinine (derived from creatine phosphate, the muscle booster)
# 10 g of salts, mainly NaCl
# 3 g of phosphates, citric acid, oxalic acid,
# milligrams of proteins, and urochromen, which is the compound giving rise to the yellow colour of urine.

Now, looking at this information, what could be the best way of isolating urea from it?

what is the urea soluble in that the other substances are not soluble in ?

or - heat/ cold - can temperature differences be used to extract the urea ?

perhaps someday i will be motivated enough to look up melting temps for all those substances.

anyway, THANKS ! for the info. :mrgreen:

 

[butcher]

Photobacterium,
Urea is good fertilizer, it is useless in refining (my opinion), so put urea on the grass.

Now why try and extract urea from your compost?

Go for the nitrates, make potassium nitrate from your compost (been done for century's), and make nitric acid, now that actually has use in recovery and refining.

 

[hemicuda5.7]

Here is another source of Urea, it is called D.E.F. or Diesel Exhaust Fluid.
It is now used in most newer diesel passenger trucks and heavy haul hiway trucks that are equipped with a diesel particulate filter which scrubs exhaust gas, similar to how a catalytic converter cleans exhaust emissions in a car or truck gasoline engine.
What I found interesting was,that upon reading the contents list on the side of the jug, that it is comprised of 37% urea and 63% purified water.
Although not a huge source of Urea but I also noticed that if a small amount of this D.E.F. was left in the bottom of the jug with the lid off all of the water would evaporate and leave a white crystal type of cake in the bottom of the jug.
I have seen it available here in auto parts stores and I not 100% positive but I think I have seen it at Wal-Mart as well.
So possibly another source?

 

[Photobacterium]

Photobacterium,
Urea is good fertilizer, it is useless in refining (my opinion), so put urea on the grass.

Now why try and extract urea from your compost?

Go for the nitrates, make potassium nitrate from your compost (been done for century's), and make nitric acid, now that actually has use in recovery and refining.

originally i was saving it for the compost pile, nitrogen is a must-have ingredient to get the compost pile heating up.

actually i'm doing a cement process right now, with copper nitrate & silver nitrate ... or, an attempted cement. 8)

i hear people talk about needing to add urea to neutralize some of the nitric acid before they can cement.


in this case, i had dissolved about 3 ounces of sterling in some nitric acid. then, i had another piece of sterling in there boiling for an hour and it didn't touch it. it makes me wonder if, maybe all the nitric is used up and i won't need to add urea ?

i would like to learn the process well enough so that i don't need urea.


i also hear people talk about using urea in cases where they use potassium or sodium nitrate in conjunction with HCl/ Muriatic to create a aqua-regia-like compound, i guess as an alternative to nitric.

i would love to make potassium nitrate from my compost !! :mrgreen:

http://www.sarep.ucdavis.edu/NEWSLTR/v6n2/sa-14.htm

i found that article about it.

"People would mix manure, organic matter, and straw in a compost pile. Throughout the year, they consistently watered the nitrate bed. The pile eventually decomposed and produced nitrates. As an ingredient in gunpowder, nitrates supply oxygen to allow the explosion to occur. Now, potassium nitrate is sometimes a component of fireworks.

http://www.livestrong.com/article/229027-what-is-the-function-of-potassium-nitrate/


i wonder if it's anything like making compost tea using boiling water and chicken manure. i tried that once, it did not go well. :shock:

 

[butcher]

Urea and nitrate's (or nitric acid) is a dangerous mix urea nitrate an explosive mix could be formed, urea will also add more contaminates to a solution.

The only good use for urea I see is to test for nitric in solution using a prill or two and watching for fizzing. Or used as fertilizer on grass.

Metals will use up the free nitric in solution (along with heat), so if a solution contains free nitric acid heating and adding more metal you wish to dissolve will use up the free nitric acid in solution.

Learn how much acid to use to saturate the solution and use up the free acid is the most important thing, that way you have no free nitric and no need for urea, or much evaporation.

Minimum acid use, calculating amount needed, (not wasting acid causing you more trouble later), and the evaporation process, and Harold's trick of gold button (when we are talking about aqua regia) (adding metal you wish to dissolve).

(Or adding more silver if dissolving silver).

Not using way too much acid to begin with.

I guess I get frustrated when people here promote the use of urea (in my mind puts new members in danger of forming a dangerous mix), urea will work, but it is used by people who are too lazy to learn how to do things right or are uninformed of proper procedures, I wish they would quit promoting this method, it helps no one to learn proper methods, that will give them a better product, easier to get their values, and with less dangers.

Throw your urea on the grass and learn the proper methods that the senior members teach (Harold and GSP), learn from these professionals not from those that continue to use what they learned on ebay or from some other half cocked method.

I will get off this soap box now.

 

[qst42know]

No urea is needed to start cementation. Copper is a better consumer of free nitric. Besides if I remember my Hoke correctly starting a stuck cementation is accomplished by adding a small amount of fresh acid.

 

[Photobacterium]

Urea and nitrate's (or nitric acid) is a dangerous mix urea nitrate an explosive mix could be formed, urea will also add more contaminates to a solution.

The only good use for urea I see is to test for nitric in solution using a prill or two and watching for fizzing. Or used as fertilizer on grass.

Urea and nitrate's (or nitric acid) is a dangerous mix urea nitrate an explosive mix could be formed, urea will also add more contaminates to a solution.

The only good use for urea I see is to test for nitric in solution using a prill or two and watching for fizzing. Or used as fertilizer on grass.

good explanation - thanks !

the only place i know where i can buy urea, i would have to buy about 50 pounds.

i did some attempted cementation last night using a hot plate on low (ambient is about 40 degrees F). i got some whitish deposits, maybe silver metal, then had to turn the hot plate off for the night.


>> No urea is needed to start cementation. Copper is a better consumer of free nitric. Besides if I remember my Hoke correctly starting a stuck cementation is accomplished by adding a small amount of fresh acid.

Thanks !

 

[butcher]

Take a glass of water add a spoon full of table salt (sodium metal chloride {salt}), continue to add salt until it saturates (will not dissolve or solution will hold no more metal ions), you will see some un-dissolved salt on bottom, add just a little more salt. Now this solution is saturated (for this temperature), now heat this salt water, now the salt in bottom of glass dissolves, now bring to boil and add salt until you see no more salt dissolve, now cool to room temperature, and see how much less salt the solution in your container holds when cooled to room temperature,
or take a saturated salt water solution and evaporate water (fumed off as gas) you salt will start precipitating as water is removed.
Or a saturated solution and chill it.

Acids are not much different than the experiment above, if we do not saturate the acid with metal (or use up the free acid in solution making a metal ion in solution), (silver + nitric acid = salt of silver in solution), then we will have to evaporate, or add a lot more metal to use up the free acid before metal will precipitate out of solution (or cement out),

And as in aqua regia excess acid in solution may try to re-dissolve the gold we are trying to precipitate out of solution,

Heat (or cooling) can change how much metal the solution will hold, it can also evaporate off excess acid or water in fumes of gases, or concentrate a saturated solution until metal ions start to crystallize out of solution, of course the properties of solution acids and metal involved will also be a factor in the properties involved here.

One of the biggest problems new refiners have (besides not doing the homework) is the use of too much acid, this not only wastes there acids, but gives them trouble when they try and recover or refine their metals, learning how little of acid is needed to saturate the solution with metal, you will also find you also are using a quart of acid to do the work a few teaspoons would have done, learn to use calculations of how much acid is needed to put how much metal in solution, avoid the trouble down the road,

 

[Photobacterium]

Take a glass of water add a spoon full of table salt (sodium metal chloride {salt}), continue to add salt until it saturates (will not dissolve or solution will hold no more metal ions), you will see some un-dissolved salt on bottom, add just a little more salt. Now this solution is saturated (for this temperature), now heat this salt water, now the salt in bottom of glass dissolves, now bring to boil and add salt until you see no more salt dissolve, now cool to room temperature, and see how much less salt the solution in your container holds when cooled to room temperature,
or take a saturated salt water solution and evaporate water (fumed off as gas) you salt will start precipitating as water is removed.
Or a saturated solution and chill it.
...
One of the biggest problems new refiners have (besides not doing the homework) is the use of too much acid, this not only wastes there acids, but gives them trouble when they try and recover or refine their metals, learning how little of acid is needed to saturate the solution with metal, you will also find you also are using a quart of acid to do the work a few teaspoons would have done, learn to use calculations of how much acid is needed to put how much metal in solution, avoid the trouble down the road,

thanks for the explanation !


what i did with the solution that stopped dissolving more silver was to add more distilled water, about 1/4 the total volume of the reeaction solution, just "topping it off".

again, i'm trying to find out if i've used up all the nitric ... but don't have any Urea to test with - yet.

one other note about my calculations - i think my count of silver grams was "in the ballpark" BUT i did not take into account all the copper dissolved - which i think would have used up nitric too. the spoons etc. turned a beautiful rosy red, with traces of gray silver un-dissolved. when they got to that point i took them out of the solution.

to try to figure out "where i am" with the solution -
1. Step One - add a little distilled water - compensate for evaporation - DONE, no effect.
2. Step 2 - add a little more Nitric Acid - see if the final test spoon has the plating dissolved off the tip of the spoon.


Apologies if this is bad etiquette for this forum ... kind of went off on a tangent ... the subject was, unusual sources of urea.