Well, now I done it! Impatience strikes.

[Nevadayote]

I'm generally rather impatient anyway, and my endeavor here is no different. I had a bunch of CPU chips ready to process and I put those in a largish beaker with muriatic and peroxide. So far so good. However, I wanted results...quick results. So, I) added more peroxide to "speed things up".

Things sped up alright. Now, according to a stannous test, that AP solution is loaded with gold as well as the base metals. I tested another waste bucket from other experiments, and there is SOME gold, but not much.

What I'm considering is draining off the AP from the chips and using SMB to drop everything out of solution so I can sort of start over...muriatic alone...drain and filter...muriatic with a LITTLE peroxide...test, drain, filter...etc. I think this way I can separate the base metals without putting too much gold back into solution.

What do the experienced refiners say?

 

[FrugalRefiner]

AP is a patient man's process. Let it run its course. When this batch of CPUs are done, test again with stannous. If it is still positive, put in some more material like fingers. Eventually, enough copper will dissolve to displace (cement) the gold that's in solution.

Dave

 

[Yggdrasil]

I'm generally rather impatient anyway, and my endeavor here is no different. I had a bunch of CPU chips ready to process and I put those in a largish beaker with muriatic and peroxide. So far so good. However, I wanted results...quick results. So, I) added more peroxide to "speed things up".

Things sped up alright. Now, according to a stannous test, that AP solution is loaded with gold as well as the base metals. I tested another waste bucket from other experiments, and there is SOME gold, but not much.

What I'm considering is draining off the AP from the chips and using SMB to drop everything out of solution so I can sort of start over...muriatic alone...drain and filter...muriatic with a LITTLE peroxide...test, drain, filter...etc. I think this way I can separate the base metals without putting too much gold back into solution.

What do the experienced refiners say?

What we say is that you have not done your studies, then you would have know that no Peroxide is needed for AP.
And you would have known that HCl/Peroxide dissolves Gold,
and also if you dissolve Gold and not ALL base metals some of the Gold will cement out on the base metals.
This may now lead to losses.

So my recommendation is to park your toys until you have studied Hokes and the actual process you are doing before you start again.

It is not for fun or malicious intent that we stress that new people need to study.
It is actually to avoid this kind of thing.

 

[Master Nater]

i say the best way to learn, is to make mistakes. i'm willing to bet that's how 99% of the people on here, learned 99% of their lessons, whether they care to admit it or not.

the important thing to remember is that you only allow yourself to mistakes that you can walk away from. keep up the learning, whether by reading or experimenting. but proceed with caution. good luck!

 

[Master Nater]

p.s. - thank you for sharing, so that a few of us could potentially learn from your mistake, and potentially not make the same.

 

[Shark]

the important thing to remember is that you only allow yourself to mistakes that you can walk away from.

How do we know which mistake is which? There are no good mistakes.

As for learning it is best to learn before the mistake, not after. With all the information on the forum there is very little reason for making basic mistakes. Yes they happen, and yes some learn from them. But some serious reading before hand could prevent 99% of the basic mistakes. Don't believe it, read all the times people have posted about them.

 

[goldshark]

i say the best way to learn, is to make mistakes. i'm willing to bet that's how 99% of the people on here, learned 99% of their lessons, whether they care to admit it or not.

the important thing to remember is that you only allow yourself to mistakes that you can walk away from. keep up the learning, whether by reading or experimenting. but proceed with caution. good luck!

The best lessons learned, come from the mistakes, agreed. The best outcome is learning from the mistake, but moving on, not beating yourself up over it. Sometimes I will make the same mistake twice, just because I can't believe I wasn't right the first time.

 

[Master Nater]

How do we know which mistake is which? There are no good mistakes.

As for learning it is best to learn before the mistake, not after. With all the information on the forum there is very little reason for making basic mistakes. Yes they happen, and yes some learn from them. But some serious reading before hand could prevent 99% of the basic mistakes. Don't believe it, read all the times people have posted about them.

there are no good mistakes? what an incredibly arrogant statement from such a smart guy.

do you know how many inventions were made by "mistake"? here's just the tip of the iceberg......

-penecillian
-microwaves
-pacemakers
-gunpowder
-x-rays
-velcro

without the fortitude to try something all for yourself, you'll never be any better than the smartest man in the room. that kind of thinking only ensure that we are all progressively getting DUMBER. i will not promote that kind of thinking, ever.

innovation comes from one getting to the point in their own intelligence, to be able to learn all on their own. actually setting a path where nobody has held their hand, and all of a sudden, the sky is the limit. i hope for everyone to reach this point in their life. and i'm sure not about to sit around trying to reduce someone when they show the courage to try, and happen to come up short. they did not fail, they just learned a way not to do what they were trying to do. but who knows what a fresh perspective just might bring...

 

[Shark]

do you know how many inventions were made by "mistake"? here's just the tip of the iceberg......

-penecillian
-microwaves
-pacemakers
-gunpowder
-x-rays
-velcro

Please explain how any of those have anything to do with refining.

And the mistake of finding the ability to produce x-rays was a very gentle mistake. Good thing no one ever died from that mistake. In fact, death has been the result of every "invention" you mentioned at one time or another. How many mistakes are OK. How many wrong answers on a school examine are OK. How many times is needed to answer the same question because it is to much trouble to search for the answer to the simple problems. As a brilliant mind once said, "Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself".

 

[Martijn]

Please explain how any of those have anything to do with refining.

And the mistake of finding the ability to produce x-rays was a very gentle mistake. Good thing no one ever died from that mistake. In fact, death has been the result of every "invention" you mentioned at one time or another. How many mistakes are OK. How many wrong answers on a school examine are OK. How many times is needed to answer the same question because it is to much trouble to search for the answer to the simple problems. As a brilliant mind once said, "Learn from the mistakes of others. You can't live long enough to make them all yourself".

Just to amuse myself and to see if the toxic way of replying has toned down with masternater, i turned the ignore off... but no, it's still the same. I'll try again next year or so. Such a shame.

Back to his statements: as you said, not in refining.

Then there is a big difference between learning the basics not to make stupid mistakes that could easily be avoided by listening to the 'smart guys in the room' you've just recently joined to learn from their vast experience in stead of start complaining why your far fetched theories are not even considered.

Let's leave experimenting to the professors that know the basics and then some, and lets leave learning the basics to newbies. that means stop and study, and listen to the smart guys! Yes, you need to invest some time to get a result and stay alive.

For some select folk, I encourage to experiment with every wild idea that comes across.

 

[anachronism]

There's and easy fix here. Put some more base metal material in that needs dissolving (for example copper bearing) and your gold will come out of solution.

I think there are many threads on here that detail the risk of gold going into and AP solution with the use of too much Peroxide but hey ho it's remediable. Look on the bright side- you're testing.

Jon

 

[anachronism]

there are no good mistakes? what an incredibly arrogant statement from such a smart guy.

do you know how many inventions were made by "mistake"? here's just the tip of the iceberg......

-penecillian
-microwaves
-pacemakers
-gunpowder
-x-rays
-velcro

without the fortitude to try something all for yourself, you'll never be any better than the smartest man in the room. that kind of thinking only ensure that we are all progressively getting DUMBER. i will not promote that kind of thinking, ever.

innovation comes from one getting to the point in their own intelligence, to be able to learn all on their own. actually setting a path where nobody has held their hand, and all of a sudden, the sky is the limit. i hope for everyone to reach this point in their life. and i'm sure not about to sit around trying to reduce someone when they show the courage to try, and happen to come up short. they did not fail, they just learned a way not to do what they were trying to do. but who knows what a fresh perspective just might bring...

In fairness there's a marked difference between experimental errors that lead to something good and doing a process wrong when it's already been laid out painstakingly many times and I think that's what Shark may have been referring to. Arrogance isn't something I would associate with said Gentleman so maybe there's a bit of comparing apples with pears occuring.

Jon

 

[Nevadayote]

I had read that using too much peroxide "could" put gold into solution. I didn't know where that threshold was though. It's here somewhere, but I didn't go looking for it. Well, I sort of found it through impatience. Knowing that the mix of muriatic and peroxide was NOT going to cause me personal injury is a huge part of why I felt safe, or safe enough, doing it as long as I stayed out of the fumes. How did I know that? I had already done some research! END OF DISCUSSION on that mistake. I will not address it here again.

The advice to let the solution work on more base metals has proven to be promising. Another stannous test after 24 hours show NO gold in solution now. It seems to have cemented out as more copper gets dissolved. Thank you to everyone who suggested it!

I think this is as far as this thread needs to go.

 

[Master Nater]

Just to amuse myself and to see if the toxic way of replying has toned down with masternater, i turned the ignore off... but no, it's still the same. I'll try again next year or so. Such a shame.

Back to his statements: as you said, not in refining.

Then there is a big difference between learning the basics not to make stupid mistakes that could easily be avoided by listening to the 'smart guys in the room' you've just recently joined to learn from their vast experience in stead of start complaining why your far fetched theories are not even considered.

Let's leave experimenting to the professors that know the basics and then some, and lets leave learning the basics to newbies. that means stop and study, and listen to the smart guys! Yes, you need to invest some time to get a result and stay alive.

For some select folk, I encourage to experiment with every wild idea that comes across.

i agree. you should turn the ignore back on. i'm here to have discussions about refining and to learn from those discussions. not to watch you and a few of your buddies try to work on your God-complex. as you badger and bully people who are trying to learn a new skill. any of the rest of you who do not like people having discussions in a forum, or do not like people standing up for others who are being bullied, feel free to ignore me as well. i will treat you just like you choose to treat others. either with respect, or without. the choice is yours.

 

[FrugalRefiner]

i agree. you should turn the ignore back on. i'm here to have discussions about refining and to learn from those discussions. not to watch you and a few of your buddies try to work on your God-complex. as you badger and bully people who are trying to learn a new skill. any of the rest of you who do not like people having discussions in a forum, or do not like people standing up for others who are being bullied, feel free to ignore me as well. i will treat you just like you choose to treat others. either with respect, or without. the choice is yours.

That's not how it works here. You should review the Forum Rules. Telling members they have a God-complex, and that they are badgering and bullying people violates those rules, such as:

"We expect readers to be on their best behavior, thus avoiding confrontations that take energy away from the topics at hand, and to avoid losing good and valuable members."

"Be sympathetic to other members. There will be zero tolerance for personal attacks on the board. If you are at odds with another, feel free to have a polite debate, but temper your words with wisdom. Post your position, doing so by sticking to the subject at hand. Do not make your comments personal in nature. Flaming is not permitted. No one will be allowed to attack the character of another. If you find yourself involved with another reader, and things don't work out as you hope, do NOT make mention in such a way that it can't be addressed by the accused."

If you are really here to "learn a new skill", perhaps you should spend more time reading and less time arguing with those who have been here contributing for years.

If you don't like the way the forum operates, you are free to leave and start your own forum to have discussions the way YOU want.

Dave

 

[Master Nater]

That's not how it works here. You should review the Forum Rules. Telling members they have a God-complex, and that they are badgering and bullying people violates those rules, such as:

"We expect readers to be on their best behavior, thus avoiding confrontations that take energy away from the topics at hand, and to avoid losing good and valuable members."

"Be sympathetic to other members. There will be zero tolerance for personal attacks on the board. If you are at odds with another, feel free to have a polite debate, but temper your words with wisdom. Post your position, doing so by sticking to the subject at hand. Do not make your comments personal in nature. Flaming is not permitted. No one will be allowed to attack the character of another. If you find yourself involved with another reader, and things don't work out as you hope, do NOT make mention in such a way that it can't be addressed by the accused."

If you are really here to "learn a new skill", perhaps you should spend more time reading and less time arguing with those who have been here contributing for years.

If you don't like the way the forum operates, you are free to leave and start your own forum to have discussions the way YOU want.

Dave

yeah, you expect readers to be on their best behavior. just not the moderators. what a load of garbage. why don't you go ahead and change my moniker to The Toxic Avenger. i'm the one getting called "toxic" (obviously one of your voodoo personal attack from your buddies) while i'm the one standing up for newbies that are being told they are too ignorant to be doing what they are trying and should just stop, even though there is no sign of danger to him/her and even though they came to a "forum" to try to learn better.

you expect everyone to "be sympathetic to other members." when are those rules going to be FOR EVERYONE, INCLUDING THE MODERATORS? let me tell you something about rules. they apply to everyone, or they are good for nothing.

"if i don't like how this forum operates?" NOBDODY likes how this forum operates. i've had plenty of conversations with plenty of individuals who see good and well how a few of you treat people. they agree that they need to keep kissing your backside, so you and your buddies will continue to answer questions. quite frankly, if there were as much information on here as you and your buddies seem to think, they wouldn't need to ask questions, would they? that's what you keep spouting. "search the forum." i can tell you firsthand, your search engine is poop. i even offered to help with it. didn't i? but as soon as everyone had a working search engine, it wouldn't be a forum. it would be a search database. wouldn't it? which, brings up the obvious question, what are your buddies going to do when you make the obvious transition to a search engine, instead of a forum? who are you going to come on here and bully, then?

you, FrugalRefiner have rarely-if-ever been disrespectful to a newcomer. i continue to give you credit for that. in fact, you are one of the few people who still give me hope that perhaps this forum still has some kind of hope for helping anyone other than the moderators who seem to want some kind of hidden agenda. i'll refrain from speculating on that. but for some reason, you choose to side with your less-than-honorable friends instead of holding everyone to the same standard. why not tell them that they need to stop being so disrespectful to newcomers trying to learn a new skill? what's the point of having a forum, when you run off more than half of the first timers who comment?

as for your veiled threat and pre-emptive, "we warned you, before i booted you..." what are you gonna do? ban me? not allow me to speak? GUESS WHAT!? 9 out of 10 people already can't speak on this forum anyhow, because as soon as they ask a question, your buddies jump right in and badger them into never speaking! most of the "members" on this site already don't speak, because of how they already know they will be treated. THAT is the environment that you and your buddies supposedly spend all of this time, "trying to help people." furthermore, how do you call that a FORUM? everyone just sits and reads how you bully newbies, and tries to pick up on the inadvertant info that you accidentally drop. Lord knows, they don't actually want anyone to learn anything. then they wouldn't have their favorite hangout to make fun of the "little people." we might as well go back to sitting in the shadows and never speaking. but i'm going to speak my peace, at least once. and if you delete it, well, that's your decision. my conscience is clear, knowing that i spoke the truth, and you saw it, and chose to delete it.

in summary, this forum is just as bad, if not worse, than high school. just a bunch of bullies picking on younger kids who are just trying to learn something new. i never thought i'd get to watch the nerds turn into the bullies. but here we are.

i for one, will ALWAYS stand up for those getting picked on. you go ahead and take the easy road, if you choose. but don't you forget, that was your choice. shame on you.

 

[Yggdrasil]

yeah, you expect readers to be on their best behavior. just not the moderators. what a load of garbage. why don't you go ahead and change my moniker to The Toxic Avenger. i'm the one getting called "toxic" (obviously one of your voodoo personal attack from your buddies) while i'm the one standing up for newbies that are being told they are too ignorant to be doing what they are trying and should just stop, even though there is no sign of danger to him/her and even though they came to a "forum" to try to learn better.

you expect everyone to "be sympathetic to other members." when are those rules going to be FOR EVERYONE, INCLUDING THE MODERATORS? let me tell you something about rules. they apply to everyone, or they are good for nothing.

"if i don't like how this forum operates?" NOBDODY likes how this forum operates. i've had plenty of conversations with plenty of individuals who see good and well how a few of you treat people. they agree that they need to keep kissing your backside, so you and your buddies will continue to answer questions. quite frankly, if there were as much information on here as you and your buddies seem to think, they wouldn't need to ask questions, would they? that's what you keep spouting. "search the forum." i can tell you firsthand, your search engine is poop. i even offered to help with it. didn't i? but as soon as everyone had a working search engine, it wouldn't be a forum. it would be a search database. wouldn't it? which, brings up the obvious question, what are your buddies going to do when you make the obvious transition to a search engine, instead of a forum? who are you going to come on here and bully, then?

you, FrugalRefiner have rarely-if-ever been disrespectful to a newcomer. i continue to give you credit for that. in fact, you are one of the few people who still give me hope that perhaps this forum still has some kind of hope for helping anyone other than the moderators who seem to want some kind of hidden agenda. i'll refrain from speculating on that. but for some reason, you choose to side with your less-than-honorable friends instead of holding everyone to the same standard. why not tell them that they need to stop being so disrespectful to newcomers trying to learn a new skill? what's the point of having a forum, when you run off more than half of the first timers who comment?

as for your veiled threat and pre-emptive, "we warned you, before i booted you..." what are you gonna do? ban me? not allow me to speak? GUESS WHAT!? 9 out of 10 people already can't speak on this forum anyhow, because as soon as they ask a question, your buddies jump right in and badger them into never speaking! most of the "members" on this site already don't speak, because of how they already know they will be treated. THAT is the environment that you and your buddies supposedly spend all of this time, "trying to help people." furthermore, how do you call that a FORUM? everyone just sits and reads how you bully newbies, and tries to pick up on the inadvertant info that you accidentally drop. Lord knows, they don't actually want anyone to learn anything. then they wouldn't have their favorite hangout to make fun of the "little people." we might as well go back to sitting in the shadows and never speaking. but i'm going to speak my peace, at least once. and if you delete it, well, that's your decision. my conscience is clear, knowing that i spoke the truth, and you saw it, and chose to delete it.

in summary, this forum is just as bad, if not worse, than high school. just a bunch of bullies picking on younger kids who are just trying to learn something new. i never thought i'd get to watch the nerds turn into the bullies. but here we are.

i for one, will ALWAYS stand up for those getting picked on. you go ahead and take the easy road, if you choose. but don't you forget, that was your choice. shame on you.

I'm assuming I'm one of the bad boys here.

Not everyone is suited to become a refiner as not everyone is suited to become welders, joiners or rocket scientists.
Most can however with sufficient effort manage, and for some that means that they need to work hard for some time.
For others it come more easily.

In a school setting it is fairly easy to see how people handle these things and advice them accordingly or even recommend them to change focus.
Here we do not see other than what they show us.
This means that studies are much more essential, at least so they can speak the language of refining.
That is why we push the books and links to every newcomer.

Additionally, mistakes done in refining can kill and maim you and others, so mistakes are best avoided.


So now to your post.

You come with a lot of harsh claims here and I can't quite see where they are coming from, but I think we need to get our definitions straight first.

Bullying is intentional long term harassment often with malicious intent, right?

Do we bully newcomers? If so I expect you to show some evidence.

As I have said before, we DO NOT pamper bruised feelings, this hobby is to dangerous for that.

And yes I do talk directly so if you do stupid things I will tell you.
I will tell the newcomers what they need not what they want.

 

[BShan]

Now that you have a leach solution, you can use that as a "starter" for the next time you do a leach, and you won't even need to add any peroxide to "get it started faster". Some benefits here are that foils are much easier to filter out than dissolved-then-cemented particles of gold, AND there's no risk of the gold cementing out between the layers of a circuit board, where it cannot be removed without re-dissolving it.

In fairness to you, there are many many more threads about "acid peroxide" than about the simple copper chloride leach, and each one is tailored to the poster's own parameters. I think the main thing that gets lost, is that the chloride leach is a slow process. There are ways to speed it up, which come with risks, as your research and experiment both taught you. This is where the intracacies and "gotchas" are. I don't think yggdrasil meant anything negative, that's just his go-to welcome, which helps cement the fact that this isn't a hand-holding forum like some expect.

4Metals and the rest of the moderation team has recently taken up the task of curating a list of posts which demonstrate the most pure form of the various processes and builds that people do/use in recovery and refining, but even then there is going to be a lot of variability in adapting the process to your specific need. It's still very new, but this is the link I have bookmarked:

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/moderator-curated-searches.34934/

If you come across a thread you found to be super useful, I think there is a link in that thread where you can post a link to the post that you found, and maybe it has enough good info to be added to the list.

 

[Nevadayote]

Now that you have a leach solution, you can use that as a "starter" for the next time you do a leach, and you won't even need to add any peroxide to "get it started faster". Some benefits here are that foils are much easier to filter out than dissolved-then-cemented particles of gold, AND there's no risk of the gold cementing out between the layers of a circuit board, where it cannot be removed without re-dissolving it.

In fairness to you, there are many many more threads about "acid peroxide" than about the simple copper chloride leach, and each one is tailored to the poster's own parameters. I think the main thing that gets lost, is that the chloride leach is a slow process. There are ways to speed it up, which come with risks, as your research and experiment both taught you. This is where the intracacies and "gotchas" are. I don't think yggdrasil meant anything negative, that's just his go-to welcome, which helps cement the fact that this isn't a hand-holding forum like some expect.

4Metals and the rest of the moderation team has recently taken up the task of curating a list of posts which demonstrate the most pure form of the various processes and builds that people do/use in recovery and refining, but even then there is going to be a lot of variability in adapting the process to your specific need. It's still very new, but this is the link I have bookmarked:

https://goldrefiningforum.com/threads/moderator-curated-searches.34934/

If you come across a thread you found to be super useful, I think there is a link in that thread where you can post a link to the post that you found, and maybe it has enough good info to be added to the list.

Thank you! That thread is promising, for sure. I'm not discouraged yet! I may be a bit confused about some methods of response, but I'm not discouraged.

 

[GoIdman]

i say the best way to learn, is to make mistakes. i'm willing to bet that's how 99% of the people on here, learned 99% of their lessons, whether they care to admit it or not.

the important thing to remember is that you only allow yourself to mistakes that you can walk away from. keep up the learning, whether by reading or experimenting. but proceed with caution. good luck!

You are correct, the only difference is that some of us stopped and started to learn before doing another mistake and lose valuable time and money.

I did make mistakes (no shame in that), when i started this endevour, but I also saw opportunity to do something even better by learning, and I have made a business out of it.....I hate working with chemicals...that was my lesson i have learned by my first AP-finger recovering process......I do my recovery mechanically most of the time, i only use chemicals when it is absolutely necessary (when refining)....it works like a charm (more time needed for sorting and recovering).

So you see, you can learn by trial and error, but some of the chemicals we use will not ask you whether you wish to die or continue your life healthy.....no amount of gold is worth dying for.....my opinion....

It is better to learn from others mistakes (for me at least) than commit some of them myself.....why waste my money and time to do something others have already failed doing it.....what is the point?

What i have wrote is not meant to upset anyone, this is just how I see things in this hobby/business.

Be safe,

Pete