What about beryllium in IC chips

[kurtak]

I've yet to see one person on this forum or other forums who can demonstrate a safe way of burning this stuff in practise. i.e. as they are doing it, not just "here's a design for xxx."

Yeah sure there's ways it can be done but nobody has demonstrated they are doing it.

4metals had a great pot idea with an afterburner that looked interesting however I am not aware of anyone following it up, yet they do plenty of this product.

Jon

That's not quite true my friend

I am having a problem with my computer (a couple months ago my touch "pad" stopped working so I am stuck with operation from my touch screen & don't know how to copy/paste from the touch screen) so I can't copy/paste links at the moment --- time to get a new computer

Anyway - there has been plenty written here on the forum about doing "proper" incineration & doing so "in practice" --- much of that posted by 4metals & me (as well as others) & yes - that includes 4metals putting his design for incineration/smelting to work (somewhere in South America if memory serve's me right)

Incineration/smelting IS the process used by "the BIG boys - & there is NO reason the little guy can't set up to do this process & do it "properly" --- it's a matter of building your incinerator/furnace, bag house & scrubber to the scale you intend to work at --- the BIG boys handle "multiple" semi truck loads per day so their incinerator/smelting operations take up several acres - the incinerator/smelter I used to send 1,500 - 2,000 pounds of CBs to (located in Rogers Minnesota) operated (legally) out of a building & property about the size of your warehouse - my own incineration/smelting operation which processes 50 - 60 pounds IC chips per day could be set up in your back yard - including bag house & scrubber

Read more about it in kjavand123 thread "Pyrolysis reactor" in the Build our own Equipment (about 3/4 way down first page of Build our own Equipment

Also read 4metals thread "Smelting" in the Library

Edited to add; - Also - read my most recent posting about it in "Techniques" with thread title "Separating all metals from carbon & organics

Kurt

 

[anachronism]

Hi Kurt

I agree that of course SOMEONE will be doing it properly. I would also love to see the results of someone doing it properly.

My point was that in the vast majority of cases people are literally throwing a pile of chips on the barbecue without knowing anything about what those chips consist of. Or more importantly what carcinogenic and nasty fumes are coming from that material.

I 100% agree that this how the big boys do it but they don't use barbecues.

 

[kurtak]

I would also love to see the results of someone doing it properly.

Jon

First of all - yes - I "absolutely" agree that burning e-waste/IC chips ANYWAY other then "proper" incineration (which I explained in detail - in Techniques - thread - Separating all metals from carbon & organics) is a VERY TOXIC "fools errand" & most if not everyone on you tube is doing it & in so doing is poisoning them self for a "little bit" of gold --- SADLY - many of those same people have a propane fired furnace & therefore could actually be doing it properly --- an electric kiln will NOT properly incinerate IC chips because it does NOT get the three REQUIRED elements to destroy (burn up) the toxic gases (temp - oxygen mixing & retention time) any "one" of those missing elements "prevents" complete destruction of the toxic gasses - even though you may not see any smoke --- in other words - just because you don't see any smoke - does NOT mean you have destroyed the toxic gases --- a propane fired furnace gets all three of those elements - provided you are able to control air flow (oxygen mixing) at the burner --- temp & retention time are automatic elements in a propane fire furnace (retention time because of the cyclone action of the flame in the furnace)

Because "I agree with you" (about "improper" incineration) is the very reason why in the past & more currently I have been posting about incineration & the NEED for doing it proper

Concerning the above quote - have you read what I posted in kjavand123 thread - "pyrolysis reactor" (page 1 & 2) which shows me using my furnace for incineration (page 1) & then the "results" of my smelted dore metal after incineration (page 2)

Granted - at that time (my "first" starting out in this process) I did not have bag house/scrubber set up - but later did set that up (sorry no pics of that)

To be honest - after building the bag house/scrubber system I came to the conclusion that on the "small" level I was working on (300 - 500 pound chip per year in 40 -60 pound batches) the bag house/scrubber are not needed --- the amount of heave metals produced in the fly ash are FAR less then the heavy metals found in treating waste solutions from wet leaching & as well the acid gases produced are FAR less then the acid gases/fumes produced in wet leaching --- so in conclusion it is my opinion the bag house scrubber is only needed if you step up to a level "beyond" that of the "small" back yard refiner

In other words - at the "small" back yard refiner level - the fly ash & acidic gases is not the problem with back yard incineration - the problem is "all" the other "toxic" gases produced with "improper" incineration

In a propane fired furnace all the other toxic gases (dioxins, furans, hydrocarbons, etc..) are in fact burned up as a result of temp, oxygen mixing, & retention time

IMO - I am exposed to "less" toxins in a day of incinerating 40 - 60 pounds of IC chips in my furnace (the ONLY way to do it) then I am exposed to in the pack of cigarettes I smoke in a day - much let along the toxins I have been exposed to in the many regular day jobs I have worked --- & there is NO question that I have been exposed to FAR more toxins in wet leaching processes then the toxins produced from incineration of IC chips --- "in my propane fired furnace"

So it's not really a question (IMO) whether to incinerate or not to incinerate - rather its a question of - IF - you are going to incinerate are you going to do it in an (improper) way that does not burn up all the toxic gases - or are you going to do it properly - which I have now explained in quite detail

A propane fired furnace is a "cheap" investment to insure that incineration is done proper

As an added note; - you want room between the crucible & the furnace walls to insure "full" oxygen mixing & retention time - if the crucible takes up to much room in the furnace you "may not" get full use of those 2 elements

This has been posted not just as a reply to you Jon - but as info in general so people will STOP incinerating IC chip in anyway other then doing it properly in a propane fired furnace AND with a burner that can control air flow (oxygen mixing being an important factor in "proper" incineration) :mrgreen:

Kurt

 

[canedane]

Thanks to Kurt for the well written analyse about pyrolising. Im afreid it will be lost , because this tread is about Berylium, i suggest it will be removed to "Other Processes" so our members can find it easy.
Henrik

 

[Thipdar]

Ok guys, I have piled up a lot of ic chips and I am ready to get these incinerated. I see a lot of guys processing IC chips but I am wondering how everybody takes precautions in dealing with (possible) beryllium(oxide) dust.

I am always more than careful in dealing with escrap. I even depopulate my boards in a dust free box (see pic) with hammer an chisel. All the chemistry I do I perform in a professional fume hood and I always wear gloves, safety glasses and lab coat.

Eveybody is, of course, interested in gold contents, but I am also interested in beryliium content of IC chips. Who has more information about this subject. My information is that some of the (springy) copper like cpu sockets contain around 2% beryllium metal. Beryllium oxide could be present in components that require good heat conductivaty. Is there berylium present in the epoxy of these kind of chips, like BGA?

Please help me with information, we could all benefit from this.

If I remember correctly, when I was working as an electronics technician, the only place I remember beryllium being used was in connector contacts. It was used as a substitute for Gold plating (when the pins were made of beryllium, they didn't need to be plated). I don't recall it ever being used inside of integrated circuits. If the board had a row or two rows of pins on .1 inch spacing, used to connect to a sub-board or to a ribbon connector, they were usually beryllium.

I think you have good reason to be hypercautious about this issue! All too often, scrappers look at those pins and go "Oh, gold!", when they should be thinking "That's probably beryllium!"

 

[archeonist]

I think you have good reason to be hypercautious about this issue! All too often, scrappers look at those pins and go "Oh, gold!", when they should be thinking "That's probably beryllium!"

Thanks for your support! I already have decided that I am not going to incinerate anything, ever. The reason is that it still is unclear to me what ic chips are exactly made of. It is clear to me however that there are harmfull compounds and that harmfull compounds are being formed into the process. The process itself is difficult to control for an amateur like me. Yet I do have chemistry knowledge, I do have professional equipment but I consider myself as an amateur in this field.

The only process that I find easy to control is the sulfuric cell for goldplated Items, (Im currently processing 12kgs of pins 8)) of course this has it own dangers but if you know what you're doing it is fairly safe. Unfortunately I see people making this process one of the most dangerous ones when they use a waterbath to cool their concentrated sulfuric acid :?

 

[refiner123]

Hi

I noticed this old thread and it seems that you never got an answer where to expect beryllium oxide in IC chips. BeO2 is a white ceramic substance, which has very good heat conductivity, but low electrical conductivity. For this reason it is used as packaging material of high power RF transistors and resistors. Generally those RF components are white ceramic packages instead black epoxy.
BeO2 is safe as long as the ceramic structure is not broken.

I have some boards with BeO2 based transistors with large very shiny gold covered legs and attachment surfaces. I am never going to process those for gold recovery, since I really don't want to break the ceramic structure and release BeO2 dust to air. BeO2 dust is very toxic and carcinogenic.

Typically devices with BeO2 content have to be marked with toxic berylliumoxide warning sticker also outside the device in order to make sure everybody repairing or processing them also after use knows what to expect. But if somebody has taken the boards out and somebody else is processing just the boards, he won't see the warning stickers anymore. For me, white ceramic is a sign of danger.

 

[refiner123]

Hi

One more hint where to be aware of beryllium. Generally those high power RF components exist on radio transmitter equipment. Anything with more than couple of watts of transmit power can have BeO2 based power amplifier transistors. If device contains DIN 7/16 RF connector, there is high probablity of BeO2 components.
So, if you process ewaste from telecom equipment with radio interfaces, you should be aware of possible beryllium containing components for your own safety.

 

[refiner123]

Hi

I happened to bump into this video on youtube:
https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=sdWGHAEwK-E

Starting at ~22 minutes on this video, there are several boards with white ceramic power transistors with golden legs. I believe all of those are Beryllium oxide casings. If you break them and inhale the dust, it can cause lung cancer with high probability.