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The book is very well put together. I especially like her attention to references, pricing, and sources (despite being outdated). It inspires me to want to assemble a guide from all the material herein in the same format, like a guide book fo modern scrap refining and recovery. Of course, I don't have the free time to assemble the book and other details associated with the production of such a guide.
 
goldsilverpro said:
the beauty of pure molten gold,

That has to be one of the most rewarding of all the experiences. As a rank novice, one that had no experience with precious metals, the beauty of pure molten gold was one of the more pleasant of surprises. Who could have imagined a metal with a golden luster would have a green luminescence when molten? Who could imagine that it would sit, perfectly tranquil and quiet, not reacting with its environment.

Assuming one has done a good and proper job of refining, and melted with clean utensils, the resulting pool of metal simply glows, without a sign of oxidation. Once cooled, it will show no signs of coloration aside from the color of pure gold. That is truly a treat for the eye. Eye candy, if you prefer.

After reading these comments, I came to realize that refining precious metals, particularly gold, became my drug of choice! It brought years of personal satisfaction to a very busy life.

Harold
 
One thing I see in Hoke's book is she mentions test needles of
the various platinum alloys, and of colored gold. Does anybody
know where these could be found nowadays? I asked a few different companies and even suggested that they make them as they are no where to be found, by me anyway.
I think that test needles for the platinum metals would be a help to alot of people, as they are tougher to distinguish from similar metals, besides specific gravity.
 
I couldn't find them either. If you can find a jeweler that works in platinum, you could probably buy tiny pieces of pure Pt and the various Pt alloys from him. If the pieces are small enough, they shouldn't cost much. He has small pieces of scrap and also, he buys his metals in a shot form and would probably part with a small piece of this. You could do the same with white golds and color golds. All you need is very tiny pieces. It's best to get the stuff from a jeweler than to use pieces of jewelry which you can't always trust. Call around and tell the jewelers you're trying to accumulate as many reliable alloys as possible.

Eventually, you'll have a good collection. The problem, of course, is to organize the various alloys and keep them from getting mixed up. If the pieces are malleable, as they should be, you could carefully flatten them (or, ask the jeweler to do it) with a small hammer and then use a small set of stamps or simply scratch the numbers on to label them.
 
I have been buying some marked jewelry, but like you say that cannot always be trusted, and that is what I want to be able to test in an easy way to make sure they are honestly marked, and for the unmarked.
If anybody on the forum has a way to make some pt alloy test needle sets or stars, you should be able to make some $ on Ebay.
 
The only thing I don't follow in the Hoke book is to always use ferrous sulfate to precipitate the gold. With today's purity requirement of 99.99%, it's virtually impossible to get that purity with FeSO4 - the iron is the problem. I do know why she uses it. FeSO4 gives the cleanest separation of gold from the Pt group, which is good. But, if you use FeSO4, you'll probably have to reprocess the gold and use another precipitant for the second drop, in order to get high purity. I prefer photo grade sodium sulfite (Na2SO3). Sodium metabisulfite is OK. It is best to melt the first drop before redissolving it.

All in all, if I think Pt group is present, I use FeSO4 first and then redo it with Na2SO3. If you use Na2SO3 first, you will probably track over a little Pt group into the gold. This can be obvious when you melt the gold. Only a small amount of Pt will make the button appear dirty or, the button will have fern-like crystals on it. If I know there's no Pt group, I'll use the Na2SO3 for the first, and only (I hope), drop.

If you don't keep the FeSO4 dry and out of the light, it can convert from light green to the brown ferric sulfate, Fe2(SO4)3, which doesn't work to drop gold. Keep it in a sealed brown or amber bottle. FeSO4 is very safe and the cheap technical grade is available in 50# bags. Better still, find a chemical company that repackages tech. grade chemicals into smaller quantities. Photo grade Na2SO3 is available from large camera shops that handle developing chemicals.
 
Hoke also mentions the use of SO2 gas in cylinder form. Has anyone seen it at any local suply houses? If so how much does it cost and at what type of store?

Chris or Harold,

Do you guys know if the gas SO2 is more specific than Na2SO4 at dropping exclusively gold ?

Steve
 
Hoke also mentions the use of SO2 gas in cylinder form. Has anyone seen it at any local suply houses? If so how much does it cost and at what type of store?

Chris or Harold,

Do you guys know if the gas SO2 is more specific than Na2SO4 at dropping exclusively gold ?

Steve
 
First the test needles.

I have never encountered any made for the platinum group----and I'm not convinced you'd find any that worked to your satisfaction. It's easy enough to distinguish palladium from platinum, which are the two metals you're most likely to encounter. A drop of nitric on palladium will provide enough solution to react with stannous chloride or dimethylglyoxime.

Test needles and dropping bottles, plus a touch stone, used to be available from jewelry supply houses----marketed by Vigor. I doubt you'd find them at a jewelry store. Rio Grande in New Mexico could be a source, but I don't have their catalog to verify that they're still available.

I would highly recommend you not try to assemble your own samples if you're interested in testing karat gold. Between dishonest benchmen that under karat, and marking laws that permitted a variance of a full K, depending on how an item was manufactured, is sure to lead to error in your samples, and the test is difficult, at best, with known samples.

Truth is, once you get past the learning curve, it would be rare to have need for them. Mine sat unused once I got established. That might not be true if you ran a pawn shop, or got involved in buying frequently.

The most important thing you can do is learn to distinguish karat gold from gold plate or gold filled. You can do that with nothing more than a small three square file and a dropping bottle of nitric. Bottom line is you have to go through the learning curve and train your eye to recognize the reactions.

SO2:

I started precipitating with ferrous sulfate, and it works very well. If you have a clue about the amount of gold you intend to recover, very little is left behind, and it readily washes from the gold if you use a proper washing technique. My washes were always done by boiling the gold powder in a fume hood, washing with HCL and tap water, followed by a boiling rinse, followed by a wash with ammonium hydroxide, taken to a boil, decanted, followed by a water rinse, also taken to a boil, decanted, then followed by a second wash with boiling HCL and water, with a final tap water rinse, and finally drying, all in the same beaker, all done in a fume hood, with heat control. You have to be very patient in drying the gold, otherwise you experience steam explosions with gold being lost to spattering. Done slowly, it's not a problem.

You can see contamination being removed by the above process. The final wash is generally void of any color, so it's a good indicator that you've removed contamination. Further, the color of the gold powder is a good indicator of purity. The lighter the color, the higher in purity you'll find the gold to be.

The problem with using ferrous sulfate as opposed to SO2 is that it markedly increases the volumes of solutions, so it requires larger and larger vessel with which you conduct your refining. I used nothing but lab grade containers (Kimax or Pyrex glassware), so I was limited to size, which was a problem as greater amounts of gold were processed. Changing to SO2 to precipitate permitted handling larger volumes because there was no increase in solution volume by its use. You can precipitate up to 18 ounces of gold from a 4 liter beaker, assuming you start out with an iced, concentrated solution. Precipitation is an exothermic reaction, so a beaker full of ice ends up a beaker full of warm or hot solution after precipitation. Cooling is important if you expect to precipitate all the gold.

I found that SO2 would drag down a trace of palladium, but only from concentrated solutions. A second refining, which was my routine, would always eliminate the traces, even if they were not washed from the gold powder on the first refining cycle.

You may encounter problems buying SO2. I think it all depends on industry in your area, although, with the changes due to EPA, that may not be true. Remember, I've been out of the game since '94, and have no clue what it's like to buy chemicals currently.

SO2 is commonly used by many, including the wine making industry, but it can be difficult to obtain in small bottles. You'll come to realize, if you try using it, that it borders on the impossible unless you have a fume hood. It's dreadful stuff to work with otherwise. Solutions retain a large amount and are suffocating to work with after the fact. It is discharged readily by boiling a solution, but, again, that requires a fume hood.

The platinum group will usually hitchhike with the gold solution, but in small amounts, too small to precipitate by conventional means. I recovered the traces on scrap iron, which, of course, eventually requires the use of a furnace for recovery. Sort of a vicious cycle, which, in the end, dictates that you have quite a bit of equipment if you intend to recover all values. It took years for me to build everything I needed.

Harold
 
Jimdoc:

I have been buying karat gold for some time now and the most important thing one learns is to never trust a hallmark or someone telling you that it is real karat gold. I test every peice of gold I buy. I have a high end gold tester, gold test picks and all test acids. (and a good magnet) I trust the test acids only.

I use the gold tester to see if the item has any gold content. Then I look for hall mark (karat marking) and make sure that there are no letters following the hall mark, like gold plated, gold rolled or electroplated or any other markings. Then I file a notch in each item with a small edged file about 1/16 inch deep. Then I start with my highest acid, like 18k and then work down to 10k if necessary to determine the actual karat rating. I have a good set of picks and the whet stone but never use them for they are not reliable in heavy plated or rolled gold. You only have to get burned once and you learn to test, test and retest.

I have a simple proceedure that I go through when I find gold for sale.

I take and run a stong magnet through the pile of metal. This will seperate any ferrous metal.

I then take and look for hall mark karat rating. Put that in a pile marked with 10k or 14k or etc.

I then test it with my gold tester and reverify the karat test.

I then take each item and file it with a edged file (rat tailed file) about 1/16 inch deep and start with 18 karat test nitric acid and observe and work on down to the actual karat rating of the gold. Note! this test will seperate the plated, filled or rolled gold from the real stuff.

I then separate all the finial tested items that tested postive for gold into thier proper pile.

I then weigh each pile and determine the actual gold content in each pile by using the magic number of 24k/10k (example)=.417. Besure to take into consideration that there is 1/2 karat tolerance in the manufacture of the gold item. I always use the number of .39 or 39%, 55% and 72% of actual pure gold content.

Once I have came up with the accumilated actual gold content, I make the seller an offer to purchase the entire lot for a certain amount, cash, depending on the monthly average spot market price of gold. I usually I pay from 60 to 70% spot. It depends on the floating average price of gold.

PS. always test chains and ropes, both on the chain itself and the clasp. they can be misleading.

Also don't pass up good gold plated, rolled or filled items. I buy them too. I ususlly figure that I will mine out about 1% to 3% gold from good stuff. Gold filled and rolled has more gold than plated. Just do the math and you can come up with some good items to recover or refine.

Lots of luck

Catfish
 
Catfish

I really admire the way you approach this buying. You seem to have all the angles down pat.

My son hates his job and I've been trying to get him to go out and buy scrap, starting with karat gold. He likes the idea but doesn't feel he knows enough. I've given him links to your forum posts but, I doubt if he's read them. He's been around PM scrap all of his life and likes it.

When he was in middle school, we were living in Malibu. In middle school, he was taking a jewelry making class. Most of the kids were rich and they would bring in silverware and gold jewelry from their homes, to melt and make jewelry. At the end of year, I gave him $500 and told him to buy all of the scrap from the other kids. He only spent $100 and brought home about $800 worth. He's had the bug ever since.

He's in the Dallas area, like your son. Dallas is a big city and I imagine it would support a lot of buyers. Does your son buy full time?
 
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