Why add free acid in Ag cell?

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From your figures. At 1000A, at 85% efficiency, with 95% Ag anodes, it would take about 13.6 hours of operation, daily, to get 1500 oz of Ag crystal. During that time, you would add about 83 oz of Cu/Zn to the solution. This would displace 83 x 3.4 = 282 oz of silver. It would take at least 81 Moles of HNO3 (about 5 liters of 70% HNO3) to provide enough NO3- to make up for the NO3- lost by the 83 oz of Cu/Zn added to the solution.

If the silver content is only 95%, I feel that, mathematically, a goal of 95% efficiency (approx. 3.82 g of Ag/A-hr) is an impossibility. I feel that 85% is about as high as you could possibly hope to achieve, mathematically. In essence, that 85% is, in your situation, 100%. The fly in the ointment is that pesky 5% base metals in the anodes and the corresponding amount of nitric that must be added to make up for the NO3- used up to put those base metals in solution.

Instead of adding acid, you could add 282 oz of pre-dissolved Ag to the cell daily. At worst (using an open top dissolving vessel), that would require about 3 gallons of 70% HNO3. If you did this, you might dissolve the 95% material. Then, if you want to keep the base metals in the bath at a lower level, you could cement out the silver with copper, clean it up, and then re-dissolve it to add back to the tank. This would allow you to raise the apparent efficiency of the bath. This would be an illusion, however, when you consider the hassle and the expense required to provide Ag solution to add daily to the tank. You could also remove solution from the cell daily, cement the Ag from it using copper bars, re-dissolve the Ag, and add it to the tank. You could also remove some solution from the tank, add a chelating agent that would only chelate the base metals, and cement the Ag out with copper or drop it out as a chloride. The problem with this is that a chelated metal solution is almost impossible to treat economically.

If you could figure a way to continually remove base metals from the bath without adding anything foreign that would build up and inevitably cause problems, you could, theoretically, run the same bath forever without changing it. There was a patent in the 70s by a guy name Hunter that used solvent extraction (I'm thinking) to do this. Or, one could probably use an ion exchange column or electrolytical ion-exchange membranes.

A neat thing about silver cells is that everything can be almost perfectly predicted by knowing the anode composition. Within this box you're forced into by your parameters, though, there are a lot of different ways to skin the same cat. However, in order to improve the apparent efficiency, I think you would have to set a system external to the cell, rather than doing something to the cell internally.

A question that keeps nagging me. Why, oh why, do you want to improve the efficiency, anyhow? If you want to do this to increase production, there are better ways.
(1) Get another cell, maybe a simple 30 gallon Thum cell, or two. Two would give about 600oz in 13.5 hours. Simple and cheap to build yourself. Build one from lumber in half a day and then have it coated with "chopped on" PVC. No drilling anodes, just snug them next to each other in the tray. No dismantling anything to harvest crystal. Thum cells take up more floor space but it looks like you have plenty of space. The way your cell is set up takes a lot more floor space than normal.
(2) Since you're now running at only 2-3 volts, you might be able to jack the current up 10% with no problems.

By the way, where are you located - city and state? PM me if you want to keep that confidential.
 
4metals said:
I cannot find anything on the internet for Strom Tek but the cell pictured doesn't appear to have the volume to produce 1500 ounces per day, or maybe it's just the angle in the picture. How many liters is the cell? I see the scraped crystals fall into the cone section and you open a valve to drain out the crystals, into that dolly I assume?

You are right, that's how it works. I cannot find any info about this company neither, these cells are old, I believe we purchased and set them up around 15 years ago, or even earlier. We did switch the big tank under the cells where we keep most of electrolyte, the total volume is around 200 gal, and it keep cycling. I never measured the volume of the cell tank where we set up the cathode and anode. We have 3 of these refining system, and everyday we make 1100oz -2300oz silver crystal per cell.

The yield are so unstable, we run 3 days for a batch of Ag plates, about 16-18 hours a day. It could be 1100oz on day 1 and 2000oz on day 2, then back to 1500 on day 3, very unstable. In between these days, we collect the Ag crystal every morning and test(ICP and titration) the electrolyte.
 
yacht252002 said:
4metals said:
I cannot find anything on the internet for Strom Tek but the cell pictured doesn't appear to have the volume to produce 1500 ounces per day, or maybe it's just the angle in the picture. How many liters is the cell? I see the scraped crystals fall into the cone section and you open a valve to drain out the crystals, into that dolly I assume?

You are right, that's how it works. I cannot find any info about this company neither, these cells are old, I believe we purchased and set them up around 15 years ago, or even earlier. We did switch the big tank under the cells where we keep most of electrolyte, the total volume is around 200 gal, and it keep cycling. I never measured the volume of the cell tank where we set up the cathode and anode. We have 3 of these refining system, and everyday we make 1100oz -2300oz silver crystal per cell.

The yield are so unstable, we run 3 days for a batch of Ag plates, about 16-18 hours a day. It could be 1100oz on day 1 and 2000oz on day 2, then back to 1500 on day 3, very unstable. In between these days, we collect the Ag crystal every morning and test(ICP and titration) the electrolyte.

\I would have saved a lot of time and energy had you provided all of this info in your first post.
 
yacht252002 said:
goldsilverpro said:
\I would have saved a lot of time and energy had you provided all of this info in your first post.

:lol: :lol: My bad

Not just you. Almost everyone is guilty and I wrote that for everybody that reads it. We that answer a lot of questions spend half our time squeezing necessary info out of people. I've thought of devising a questionnaire that would cover all the bases, but that would take a lot of thought to make it work.

One of the problems is that people who have used only one process in their life for a specific type of material get the idea that is the only way to do that material and, therefore, when they ask a question, they think that people will know what they're talking about. The thing is that there is a myriad of ways to do most anything and details are very important. We're not mindreaders.
 
Instead of adding acid, you could add 282 oz of pre-dissolved Ag to the cell daily.

I do something similar to this when setting up a refiner to run a cell, I have them digesting their sterling, or better yet their cement silver from replacing electrolyte, and making up a silver nitrate concentrate.

They enter into a spreadsheet custom for their size cell, the assay of the silver they want to digest and the program tells them how much nitric and distilled water to add to make the silver nitrate.

They store this concentrate and when they do the daily Volhard titration, they enter the result into the sheet and it tells them how much of the concentrate to add to bring the cell up to the level they like to operate at. Essentially what Chris is suggesting. I call it the Red Bull method. It does prevent the nitric additions to the cell and the associated re-dissolving of the crystals to raise the silver level.

The larger Italimpianti systems have large nitric holding tanks and a timed circuit which you calculate (based on anode impurities into the cell) an hourly dose of nitric to maintain the silver. I set up a system for a client which had a design capacity of 200,000 ounces a week of fine silver, the unit had 4 separate banks of cells so it had 4 nitric dosing tanks. To make up for the loss of production from the silver digested by the nitric additions, which was quite apparent, I used one of the banks to do the Red Bull method. No modifying of any hardware, just running to a different algorithm. And sure enough, that bank of cells immediately improved its production of fine silver.
 
A couple of questions:

1) Why only run 16-18 hours per day? With an automated system like you have, and little to no gold in the anodes, I would think you could run 22 hours per day minimum.
2) I am sure my eyes just can't see it, but it appears both the anode basket support and the cathode plate are going to the same busbar. How are they insulated from each other?
3) It appears the anode basket is made from stainless steel? I am a bit surprised you can pass 1000 amps at only 2-3 volts. Do you ever have resistance heating problems in the stainless steel?

Overall, the cell appears in immaculate shape; congrats to the operator for the great housekeeping.
As for the variation in daily production, there are a limited number of possibilities:

1) The actual amperage going through the cell may be changing if you are limiting the voltage to a maximum of three volts.
2) You may have some "bridging" of crystals between the cathode and anode. If your scrapers don't extend low enough, perhaps under the cathode plate where it is not quite so apparent?
3) If you are adding nitric directly to the cell, perhaps more or less is being added than should be.

Regardless, all the above are pretty obvious and easy to check. I tend to think that (barring nitric additions to the cell) for any given amperage into the cell, silver crystal deposited should be directly related. What will vary is the amount of the anode that dissolves. All this has been covered by others already (and explained far better than I can), so I am at a loss as to why the large variation in daily production.

As for the original question about why do we add nitric acid to the cells, for me, it comes down to control of the crystal morphology. A small amount of nitric in the silver nitrate electrolyte tends to give a more compact, easier to scrape, wash and dry crystal. I am not a big believer in adding excess acid directly the cells to generate the silver nitrate required to replenish what is lost from impurities dissolving from the anode. You have done the work to refine the material to a high purity, why dissolve a portion of that for make-up solution? Better to dissolve some of the incoming feed for make-up solution, since the impurities contained will end up in the electrolyte anyways, whether from anodic dissolution or from nitric acid dissolving and then added as solution. Of course, everyone has different opinions based on their experience and how well they can dissolve silver and treat waste silver nitrate solutions, so my operating conditions may end up quite different from anyone elses.
 
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