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In this case I'd respectfully agree to differ. The guy's a serial con artist. Give him money back and he's laughing at you. There's kindness and misplaced kindness and personally I think this would be the latter.
 
4metals said:
Glorycloud said:
Doing what's right is what is real for me. If he responds, I will pay for what he shipped. To get a full refund and keep all the product, that's not right regardless of whatever
motives may have been at play (or not) by the seller.
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A scholar and a gentleman!
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I agree very much. Doing good is about one's self standards and self worth as much as aiding someone else. Yep, it can bite you, but every now and then there is that rare instance that makes it worth while.

Edit: spell correction
 
Shark said:
I agree very much. Doing good is about one's self standards and self worth as much as aiding someone else. Yep, it can bite you, but every now and then there is that rare instance that makes it worth while.
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Unrelated (to refining) anecdote:
My brother-in-law needed to borrow our car to get back and forth to work while he fixed his truck. "Sure!" I said, (thinking 2 or 3 days max..)

A day turned into a week, into month, then two.
No big deal, we own another vehicle. My wife is third shift, me and the boys run errands in the morning.

....well, today he hit a deer going to work. Totalled the car pretty much (according to their appraisal)... So we are getting a pretty substantial check for damage via insurance. It still runs, and it drives fine.
When we bought the car a year ago and paid less, much less, it already had a little damage to the spot that bambi impacted.
So, win-win, I suppose.

It was a minor burden not having a second vehicle for that long.,(no good deed goes unpunished). But, now patience and understanding has paid off, in multitude.

Back to topic.
Maybe circumstances put the guy in a hard spot and he didn't know what to do..maybe he sent someone else your package, and you got theirs? (I've done that before. :oops: )..Or maybe he was in fact trying to one up you. But, even after the ordeal with him, and then suffering through paypal's policies, you still offer to pay for what he was able to send... That alone shows you are a man of admirable integrity, and speaks volumes of your character. That good will surely come back around to you in the end.

If he were to pull that here again though,... Thats another story :evil:
 
Topher_osAUrus said:
If he were to pull that here again though,... Thats another story :evil:
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Then it is time to "pay the piper" and they deserve what they get.
 
FrugalRefiner said:
It's always nice to see our members' true colors. :)

Dave
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I don't think that refusing to give money to a con man makes someone less of a man or makes them have less morals.

You used to pull people up for innuendo- I guess things change.

Edit: I have spoken to other members today who also feel exactly as I do about giving money back to this guy but as per usual since I'm the one who comes out and says it, I get criticised for it and certain people then mistakenly assume that this justifies their own position as being the consensus. In reality there's a pile of folks out there thinking "are you mad??" Whilst not actually saying it out loud either for fear of being jumped on, or because they don't want to be seen to agree with me, or because they find it so daft that they cannot be bothered.
 
As much as I most certainly understand & respect gloryclouds willingness to pay rparks3rd for what he did receive (goes to show the true integrity of glorycloud) he (glorycloud) would "most certainly" be justified in not paying rparks3rd ANYTHING without it reflecting badly on gloyclouds reputation/integrity

Therefor I agree with Jon's assessment of the matter :!:

(1) rparks3rd has "already" been given "ample" opportunity to make the deal right (so the 30 day "grace period" has already expired - no "need" to extend "additional" time/grace period)

(2) this is not the first instance of rparks3rd running a bad deal with a member (as posted by denim)

(3) this falls in the same principle of businesses charging someone "additional funds" for bouncing a check - that charge - is "in part" charged due to the business needing to "further pursue" collection of payment - that should have been made "good" in the FIRST place

Kurt
 
Since you consider my previous post to be innuendo, I'll try to be more clear.

Glorycloud is a fine gentleman doing good work. I believe he showed his true colors in the way he has handled this transaction gone wrong and that he is still prepared to pay a fair price for what he received.

You felt the need to make three posts telling him he was wrong for wanting to do what he felt was the right thing. Even after you told him to "get real", and he explained why his approach was "real" for him, you couldn't just let it go. You told him he was "enabling" the seller. When 4metals tried to explain and support glory's position, you had to disagree with him as well.

I said nothing about anyone being less of a man or having less morals. That's your interpretation.

I hope I have made my feelings more clear.

Dave
 
Kurt, you made mention of rsparks "running a bad deal with a member" with denim, but if you review the thread, you'll find that denim finally realized the problem with his deal was his fault in not having given rsparks the correct email address, and he apologized to rsparks.

Dave
 
Well given that people feel perfectly entitled to disagree with me vociferously on occasion so too can I disagree vociferously with someone else Dave.

You seem to think I'm attacking Glorycloud by disagreeing with him but if you had a friend who was going to jump in a river or hurt themselves by doing something would you not also do your level best to prevent them doing it? Or would you sit around worrying about their sensibilities?

Truly looking out for someone and true friendship involves telling it how it is. Regardless of how it may be taken. Maybe you do things differently over there Dave, I'm really not sure although it does seem a strange way of going about things.
 
When I read what Glory was intending to do, I went to his profile and visited his website. What he is doing by offering to pay for what he received is in keeping with the principles that he lives by, and I applaud his approach.

But it is not our place to judge anyones intent here. Glory's approach is skewed towards helping and giving a man what he feels he is due, and Jon's approach is skewed towards business. And neither is wrong. Most of us can understand Jon's approach, and I hope a good number of us can understand Glory's approach.

I guess it all comes down to where you choose to spend your Sunday's.

It is not my intent to push this into a discussion not proper on a gold refining forum so i will leave it at that, Glory's not wrong, Jon's not wrong, and we're not here to judge. We're here to talk about refining.
 
He might not even be out the money, if he already had the money pulled off the account and had a prepaid card linked to his account instead of a debit card (yes, it's possible, if it has your name on the card, and a routing number for deposits)

Seems to be many layers to this stinky onion
 
FrugalRefiner said:
Kurt, you made mention of rsparks "running a bad deal with a member" with denim, but if you review the thread, you'll find that denim finally realized the problem with his deal was his fault in not having given rsparks the correct email address, and he apologized to rsparks.

Dave
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You are correct Dave, I did say that. But to me, I believe we have somewhat lost track of the reality that there is a pattern to this guys behavior.

When I initially had my run-in with him he was very difficult to deal with- poor communication. I did give him an incorrect paypal payment address once, but I also gave him the correct paypal address more than once prior to that. I did admit fault after realizing I had given him the incorrect address once, one time out of three times, I believe.

During my 'deal gone bad' with him, after some months of waiting, I was told by him that he had to leave the country on a mission- to South America somewhere I believe. I thought that was great- he was going to perform Gods work, for which I can surely wait!

After about three years he showed up again trying to sell some escrap, and I asked him then if he would be kind enough to send me the ten bucks he owed me out of the proceeds of this sale. I believe it was at this time that I gave him the incorrect paypal address- THREE YEARS AFTER THE ORIGINAL TRANSACTION!!! He also informed me at this time that the reason for his being awol was because he had to go to jail after receiving his third DUI, and not because of some bs mission! He lied!! Starting to see a pattern here?

Well, a couple more years pass and he shows up yet again trying to hawk some of his wares, and I posted trying to warn others about doing any business with him. Goran must have read my warning post as he asked me to pm him with the details and I did. It was during this posting to Goran that I realized I had sent the OP the incorrect paypal address. So I decided to accept all blame for my not receiving payment from him.

Well, unfortunately, I believe my admission must have given Glory the feeling that all indeed was good with this rsparks guy and he proceeded to get involved with rsparks in another ill fated deal. Apparently Glory has had the same kind of experience as I did with this guy- very poor communication, and lack of completion of the deal.

To me there is clear evidence of a habitual pattern here. No need to further convince me! It amazes me that the narrative of this "Glory deal' has turned to compassion for a guy who is clearly ripping people off, and for pouring adulation upon Glory for being the great guy he is. Glory is a great member who possesses fantastic human qualities. No one would argue that, but Glory's credibility is not the issue here. Rsparks credibility is!

Dennis

rsparks- If you are out there and reading this, sorry I had to throw you under the bus, but I felt the truth had to be told.
 
Whatever the background is, trust and reputation is hard earned and easy to lose.

I strongly recommend that anyone wanting to deal with rsparks in the future should wait for the goods before sending any money.

Göran
 
I did a lot of deals on eBay. A lot. As a seller and buyer combined and had my share of good and also bad deals. While on one hand I regularly received gold coins in plain envelopes not even registered where I could claim it was not received I would never do such a thing as I was in the same shoes as a seller.
In this particular deal what happened between Glory and rs... what gave him away was the lack of communication which is unacceptable unless he died or got a heart attack or something like that. As far as I understand he did not react, not here, not with Glory, not with PayPal...
Well, for me it is simple. If that happened to me (and it happened quite a few times) I would wait for him to explain what happened. If he was not trying to pull a fast one he can always try to explain what happened and sort out things and only then maybe if his explanation will be believable he can get his stuff minus all expenses incurred in the process.
As much as I do believe in second chances it looks that this individual is going through them quite regularly.
No way I would even offer him to get that material back unless he asked for it first and with quite some explanation of what happened.
It is like giving thief his gun back after he tried to rob you.
I would send it back only if I learnt that he got heart attack or died or something like that and that was why he could not react but there is still that question of "why did he sent much less than what he was supposed to according to deal made."
Do I consider myself not an honest or bad person? Nope. I can sleep sound at night.
 
patnor1011 said:
I can sleep sound at night.
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And to me, that is exactly what it is all about.

We all have different standards we do things by, and which is right and which is wrong is an individual thing. Making a decision, such as Glorycloud has done, is his personal choice. Good for him, at least he made a decision and stands by it. As well, those who feel the other way should do the same, make a decision and stand by it. There is enough information put out here for each individual here to make the choice of whether to deal with this guy or not. Just make your choice and stand by it.

Now how about a refining subject to get back on track.
 
Yeah I can sleep at night too. Every single business decision I have made over the last 25 years has been ethical and honest. Having a business mind and a "Sunday mind" (to keep things on the level) are not mutually exclusive and you don't need to subscribe to a particular ethos to be able to have morals.

One thing I would ask though. Giving the guy his product back or the money back will enable him to do this to other people. Would you give a mugger back the Kosh he used to hit you with, knowing he would use that to hurt other people?

My considered suggestion, whether taken on board or not would be to give the money or proceeds to a worthy institute rather than feed the cycle.

Glory if this is what you want to do Sir then go for it. I fully respect your decision but I thank you for allowing me to make my points.

Jon
 

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