Pyrolysis reactor

[Research135]

The reason pyrolysis is effective is because it has little or no smoke up the stack, it burns the volatiles out of the material and allows them to be combusted in the primary flame, but the carbon is still there. To go to the next step, you need to burn off the carbon. With properly pyrolyzed material this is a smokeless process.

When someone is burning openly or in an incinerator there is a lot of smoke and airborne pollution. And there are the losses from the smoke carrying values up the stack. (Which can be significant or not)

Pyrolysis addresses the pollution nicely, it does not address the burning of the carbon, requiring a second step. The addition of air after pyrolysis is complete may do this but likely not completely.

I thought about it. You are right.

 

[Research135]

Dinner (deer & wild turkeys) walks through the yard every day...--- & yes I LOVE IT

Kurt

What State in the USA is that, Kurt?. I'd love that kind of freedom.

Do you hang the game a few days to soften it up a bit?. How long?. Cheers!.

 

[Research135]

Dinner (deer & wild turkeys) walks through the yard every day. Its a very good - very rural area - with good neighbors that look out for & help out each other --- & yes I LOVE IT

Kurt

30-06 for deer, 12" shotgun for turkeys?, and ...what for the neighbors? :lol:

 

[924T]

kurtak,

Did you make your furnace yourself? It looks like it might be a shortened 55 gallon steel drum.

What kind and size of crucible are you using?

And, I can't figure out what the rectangular sheet metal box is for that the gas pipe appears to run through-----
I'm curious what it's purpose is.

Cheers,

Mike

 

[kurtak]

kurtak,

Did you make your furnace yourself? It looks like it might be a shortened 55 gallon steel drum.

What kind and size of crucible are you using?

And, I can't figure out what the rectangular sheet metal box is for that the gas pipe appears to run through-----
I'm curious what it's purpose is.

Cheers,

Mike

No I had it built for me - yes its made from a 55 gallon drum

It takes up to a #40 salamander crucible which is what you see in the last pic full of chips

if you are talking about the sheet metal box on the left of the last pic (pic of chips in crucible) that is just some scrap iron laying on the ground next to the furnace

When I had the furnace made I also had a 2 man lifting tongs & 2 man pouring tongs made - furnace & tongs cost me $1200

Kurt

 

[924T]

Kurt,

Thanks for the reply!

The $1200 you paid for the furnace sounds like a good deal to me----on ebay, $500 is about the lowest price
for a U.S. made furnace that will only hold an A6 crucible.

When you said yours holds a #40 crucible, is that the same as an A40? If so, that's one big crucible
by my standards, and the 2-man tongs, etc., that you had made make a ton of sense.

Very impressive, indeed.

Out of curiosity, is the refractory cement in your furnace laid over layer(s) of ceramic insulation, or is
it all refractory cement?

And, what is the maximum weight of I.C. chips you can successfully run at one time in your furnace?

Cheers,

Mike

 

[924T]

kjavanb123,

That is an impressive piece of extrapolation on NoIdea's design that you have built!

I'm curious as to whether you ran any of your pyrolized material on your wave table after ball milling
it, and if so, what kind of results did you get? I am definitely wondering whether or not the Gold bonding wires from pyrolized/incinerated I.C.'s will move up a wave table, or just get carried away by the water flow.


Cheers,

Mike

 

[kurtak]

Yes the $1200 I paid was a very good deal

Yes an A40 Crucible

Layer of ceramic insulation to the out side (doubled I believe) then brick cemented in to the inside the lid is just poured cement

Not sure of actual weight per crucible load but I can do 60 plus lbs in a day

Kurt

 

[kurtak]

Here are some pics I took the last time I did some smelting

The first one shows the burner hooked up to the furnace (which you asked about earlier) the guy in the pic is my helper

The second one shows my cone mold on a turkey fryer burn for pre-heating & the lifting tongs (leaning against the saw horses) & the pouring tongs (on to the saw horses)

The last one is the metal I poured that day - the smelt was IC ash & SMDs with "low grade) pins used as collector metal

Need to take the metal in to be checked with XRF & I also pulled pin tube samples for umpire assay if I don't get ball park payout when I send it in

Kurt

 

[4metals]

Kurt,

Do you send out the cone poured metal for refining? I have found that a cone mold is wonderful for collecting all of the metal from a melt with excesses of flux but it is less than ideal for sampling.

I always take all of my cone bars and re-melt them with a minimum of flux and sample with a pin dip tube. If you are re-melting with gas you have to stir it aggressively just before sampling and pouring, this is not a necessity in an induction melt.

If you were to use an XRF to read the metal concentrations in the point of a cone and again on the sides and top of the bar, they will differ, sometimes considerably. Any pin sample you have saved for reference as an "umpire" will likely not match reality in a properly sampled remelt.

Also an umpire sample that is drawn at a refiner is witnessed by both parties and sealed as an umpire. No refiner will accept your sample as an umpire, only as a point of reference.

 

[Anonymous]

Is that because in a cone mold the heavier metals can end up in the bottom therefore skewing a sample?

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Is that because in a cone mold the heavier metals can end up in the bottom therefore skewing a sample?

Yes

 

[4metals]

Is that because in a cone mold the heavier metals can end up in the bottom therefore skewing a sample?

The short answer is yes, as Barren posted, but it gets more complicated than that. Depending on the difference in the melting points and the solidus points of all of the metals in the mix. If you have a concentration of low melting point metals combined with some high melting point metals they will tend to stratify on cooling. As the metals cool, they will settle to the lowest point in the mold and displace the liquid metals that are sitting there so in reality, the point of the cone can be low in assay if the specific blend is such that favors this particular separation.

Problems also come from the three magnetic elements, Cobalt, Iron, and Nickel. Excessive quantities of these metals will cause layering and bad sampling. I like to keep the percentage of magnetic elements (total) under 5% if possible by cutting the melt with copper.

 

[kurtak]

Kurt,

Do you send out the cone poured metal for refining?

4metals

Thanks for the reply --- so far (in the past) I have not sent any of my smelts out but have processed them myself

So to be honest I am only "considering" sending this one out - the reason being that I am wanting to get away from processing lower grade material in house to cut down on the dealing with chem waste treatment & therefore deal only (or at least more) with processing higher grade material in house

I am aware of the stratification problem of metal poured to a cone mold - right now the cone mold is the only large mold I have - the next biggest mold I have will only take 1 kg metal which I use for pouring my anodes

The large cone pours you see on the scale are re-melts of the smaller cones acquired during the smelting - the re-melting of the cones from smelting were given a "good" stirring with my carbon rod before pulling the pin tube samples

So here was/is my plan - I fully intended to have the cones shot (XRF) top, center & bottom for no other reason then to see for my self just how much stratification plays in pouring to a cone mold - then re-melt the pin samples & pour to my small carbon mold (pictured) to get a better surface area for XRF shooting - this (the pin tube metal) should give me though not fully accurate analysis of the cone content - at least a closer "ball park" read of the cone content

The XRF readings will for one thing tell me what metals other then PMs are in the cones - IF - I should decide to send it off for processing this will allow me to tell the receiver what other metals are involved & they can then tell me if there are any metals involved that would result in deductions in their pay out

Also the XRF readings will tell me (1) if I have a "ball park" high enough concentration of PMs to be worth sending out at this time - or - (2) if I should keep it - re-melt - pour to shot & use as my collector metal in my next smelt - or - (3) if the PM content is high enough to process my self (depending on charges & payout with sending it out)

Besides ICs (about 60 lbs to start with before incineration & washing ash off to concentrate) & SMDs (about 17 lbs) & low grade pins as my collector - there was also some "dirty" silver cement, anode slimes, & my incinerated filter papers that went into this smelt

I figure there is something like 2 &1/2 to 3 lbs silver & at the very least 1ozt & more likely closer to 2ozt (plus/minus a bit) of both Pd & Au & possible other PGMs but likely not accountable enough for pay out

In other words - the XRF reading is not intended as a "hold accountable expectation" - but rather for determining which way to proceed - send out - or ???

Does this make sense to you ?

Kurt

 

[4metals]

Kurt,

Your approach makes perfect sense. You are tailoring it to your operation, and who knows more about your operation than you?

If the copper concentration goes over 95% as copper, it may be a good candidate for electrolytic copper refining. That is a recovery method that will not generate a lot of waste, give you clean copper and concentrate your PM's for further refining. It would be interesting to hear what terms you are quoted for the material. Especially the accountability for each metal and the minimum deductions.

 

[alexxx]

Maybe some other members not that familiar with smelting are also as curious as I am to know more about this process...

The lead oxide which was used at the begining of the smelt, converts to lead metal, collects all the heavy metals, then silver is added to it, that will alloy with gold, silver or any palladium in the feed in materials,

OK, that makes sense...

at the end stage of smelt, lead is oxidized then removed from the molt, as can see from picture.

How is the lead oxidized, any other flux added ? any oxygen forced into the furnace ? Or this naturally occurs as the melt goes on ?
Anymore details about this part ??

So the lead oxide or any lead that added during the process is recycled and re used in next smelt.

How exactly, in what form ? Litharge ? Curious to know more about this step too...

cheers,

Alex

 

[kurtak]

Alex

The one thing to keep in mind with the PbO smelting method that Kevin is using is that it works fine if you are only concerned with the recovery of the PMs (Ag, Au &/or PGMs) as the other metals are oxidized by the PbO & carried off in the slag & also you need to have a fair amount of "additional" silver to add to the smelt to insure complete collection of the PMs in your starting material (circuit board ash) as there wont be enough of the PMs in & off them selves in the ash to make the collection complete

In other words you lose the copper & have to add silver

The other option is to smelt using more standard fluxes - without the addition of the PbO in which case the copper becomes you collector (so you don't lose it) & you don't need to add silver - you may need to add more copper depending on how much you are able to concentrate the metals from the ash before smelting

The question is how the smelt recovered metals are going to be dealt with after the smelt --- in other words is recovering the copper along with the PMs worth the process to follow - or not ?

Copper collected PMs - you will have to

1) set up an electrolytic copper cell & then treat the anode slimes for the PMs -or ----

2) have a buyer that will pay out on the copper as well as the PMs

Silver collected PMs (copper lost to PbO oxidation)

1) wet chem &/or silver cell - or ----

2) buyer that pays on all the PMs

Kurt

 

[kjavanb123]

kjavanb123,

That is an impressive piece of extrapolation on NoIdea's design that you have built!

I'm curious as to whether you ran any of your pyrolized material on your wave table after ball milling
it, and if so, what kind of results did you get? I am definitely wondering whether or not the Gold bonding wires from pyrolized/incinerated I.C.'s will move up a wave table, or just get carried away by the water flow.


Cheers,

Mike

Hi Mike,

I did not see this, so I will respond accordingly. I never tried running the ashes on shaker table, as in smelting you just mix the pyrolyzed materials with fluxes and smelt to get the precious metals. But if you search youtube, there are numurious videos by MBMMLLC or Mt. Baker Mining and Metals LLC that show running both incinerated and non-incinerated pulverized motherboards on their shaker table and both show based on assay results that over 80% of gold end up in high grade concentrate hole, while only less than 6% of gold ends up in tailing.

Regards
Kj

 

[kjavanb123]

Alex,

I responded to you in email but Kurt nailed it pretty much, but for others interested in smelting, here is a brief information about it, first materials are mixed with soda ash and some water to make them stick together, then lead is added to the furnace and melted, mixed materials are added, until melted and slag is removed periodacly.
After all materials are melted and slags are removed, the molten lead is oxdizied by cutting thr gasoline and letting the air blow on it, few times. This forms a layer of dark oxid metals on top of lead and is rinsed out, this continues until the volume of lead shrinks to half of its size. Then silver is added either as metal or chloride form, this will collect all the precious metals, oxidization continues at this stage till all lead is converted to lead oxide and removed. Only silver alloy remains.

Hope that helps.

 

[kjavanb123]

Alex,

I responded to you in email but Kurt nailed it pretty much, but for others interested in smelting, here is a brief information about it, first materials are mixed with soda ash and some water to make them stick together, then lead is added to the furnace and melted, mixed materials are added, until melted and slag is removed periodacly.
After all materials are melted and slags are removed, the molten lead is oxdizied by cutting thr gasoline and letting the air blow on it, few times. This forms a layer of dark oxid metals on top of lead and is rinsed out, this continues until the volume of lead shrinks to half of its size. Then silver is added either as metal or chloride form, this will collect all the precious metals, oxidization continues at this stage till all lead is converted to lead oxide and removed. Only silver alloy remains.

Also one thing regards post by Kurt, there is a gentelman on this forum who have a system from China that takes in populated boards and using controlled heat, depopulate them, collects the tin, and output the bare boards, and components, then tin is sold as ingot, while bare boards go to series of milling and cyclone and finally separated from bare boards and sold as copper. This will recover tin and copper while depopulate boards.
Other components can be milled and using dry separator to remove plastics, and smelted to get the gold. He is going to send me a sample of those separated components which went to milling and separation process, so I can smelt for him.


Hope that helps.