Refining catalytic converters [help needed]

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newt3947 said:
I have been reading the forum for 2 years, so I know how to search the forum for answers. I have not been able to find the answer to my questions. There is a huge data of information on the forum and it is difficult to find the right thread that would give me the answer to my questions. Your post would have been useful if you directed me to a thread that addressed the questions that I asked. I have read Hoke and refer to it constantly. I have read other authors also. I have been processing gold without difficulties for 2 years because of this website. I have bought and viewed several DVDs that have been recommended on this forum. I hesitated to make a request for help on this forum because I thought I would be treated as an many "newbies" are treated. I'm not a chemist, but I do have a MD degree, so I'm not asking these questions out of stupidly. I am doing the PM refining as a hobby. I don't appreciate your response, and if you don't have something constructive to contribute to this thread then you need to keep your negative attitudes to yourself. This is a great website and there are some really smart people on this website. I want the smart people to respond to my questions, not the hall monitors. I don't want to tick anybody off, but your response was not helpful.
Click to expand...


On the forum for two years, then on the path of getting booted off within 24 hours of your first post.
Real smart.

Jim
 
newt3947,
I really do not understand your complaint, NickVc really gave you good advice, answered your question, and spent time trying to point you in the direction where the answers to your questions can easily be found, he was helpful as usual, and always gives members great advice.

How could he have been more helpful, what should he have said, that could have helped you more?
should he have provided you with the threads from his memory, or spend time from his business to find threads you may or may not find interesting or helpful?

Your request, or expectations are just ridiculous, the only one I see with a negative attitude here is you, in your reply to someone trying to help you, I am not a hall monitor, and neither is NickVc, if you do not want to tick the forum off, you sure do not know how not to go about that, do you, it looks to me like you just spit in the face of those willing to spend their time to help you.

I am sure my response here will not be helpful to you, but maybe someone else may find it helpful.

I do not have much constructive to add here, you have done a good job of seeing to that, by the way you have reacted to a fellow member trying to assist you.
 
butcher said:
newt3947,
I really do not understand your complaint, NickVc really gave you good advice, answered your question, and spent time trying to point you in the direction where the answers to your questions can easily be found, he was helpful as usual, and always gives members great advice.

How could he have been more helpful, what should he have said, that could have helped you more?
should he have provided you with the threads from his memory, or spend time from his business to find threads you may or may not find interesting or helpful?

Your request, or expectations are just ridiculous, the only one I see with a negative attitude here is you, in your reply to someone trying to help you, I am not a hall monitor, and neither is NickVc, if you do not want to tick the forum off, you sure do not know how not to go about that, do you, it looks to me like you just spit in the face of those willing to spend their time to help you.

I am sure my response here will not be helpful to you, but maybe someone else may find it helpful.

I do not have much constructive to add here, you have done a good job of seeing to that, by the way you have reacted to a fellow member trying to assist you.
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i do remember reading a post on leaching pgm's with your same method newt. i can't see reading through 20 or 30 post titles to find a answer. i will even help look for it.
 
I apologize for my remarks. I have been searching the forum for the answer to my problems and have spent hours reading and searching. I guess I'm just frustrated. I was hoping someone could enlighten me concerning the process of using KCl to drop platinum. The reaction I got when rinsing the platinum salt surprised me and I don't know what to do to correct it. I did something wrong but I don't know what it was. I was just wondering if anyone else had had a similar issue.
Again, I apologize for my remarks. I'll keep looking. The answer has to be in the forum somewhere.
 
I just wish people would stop with the catalytic converter leaching.

Too much mess and too much risk for too few dollars.
 
newt3947 said:
I apologize for my remarks. I have been searching the forum for the answer to my problems and have spent hours reading and searching. I guess I'm just frustrated. I was hoping someone could enlighten me concerning the process of using KCl to drop platinum. The reaction I got when rinsing the platinum salt surprised me and I don't know what to do to correct it. I did something wrong but I don't know what it was. I was just wondering if anyone else had had a similar issue.
Again, I apologize for my remarks. I'll keep looking. The answer has to be in the forum somewhere.
Click to expand...
newt,

I'm not sure where you got the idea to use potassium chloride (KCl) to precipitate platinum. Hoke used ammonium chloride (NH4Cl), which creates the orange powder platinum ammonium chloride. As already mentioned (and described by Hoke) the PGM salts are dissolved by plain water, so she suggests:
C. M. Hoke said:
So dissolve a handful
of pure ammonium chloride in a pint of water, making up roughly
a 15% solution, and put it in your small wash-bottle. Label this
little wash-bottle, so as not to confuse it with the big one containing
plain water. Wash the orange powder into the filter with this ammonium-
chloride-water, using as little as will do the work.
Click to expand...
We use ammonium-chloride-water
because some of the powder would dissolve in plain water,
but very little dissolves in ammonium-chloride-water. But use as
little as will do the work.
Click to expand...
As Nick suggested, you'll find answers to some of your questions in Hoke's book.

Dave
 
Here is a post from Lazersteve where he uses potassium chloride.
http://goldrefiningforum.com/phpBB3/viewtopic.php?f=51&t=20533&start=20#p211828

As I understand it, potassium hexachloroplatinate have a very low solubility in plain water. So there are only two possibilities, either you didn't use pure water or the salt you had wasn't K2PtCl6. You can't fool nature.

... scratch that, according to http://www.chemicalbook.com/ChemicalProductProperty_EN_CB8752907.htm has a solubility of 50 g/L (95 ºC), did you use hot water?

Further research gives : http://bitnest.ca/Rhodium/chemistry/platinum.recovery.html
"If the solution becomes too cold, a considerable amount of sparingly soluble potassium hexachloroplatinate(IV) may precipitate."

So, the search of the solubility goes on and the last reference I found was http://www.espimetals.com/index.php/msds/231-potassium-hexachloroplatinate
Solubility in H2O: Slightly in cold, soluble in hot

Try washing in cold water and see what happens.

Göran
 
The issue people seem to have with all of this catcon stuff is that they're leaching a converter with at most 2,000-3,000 ppm Pt in it (2-3 g / kg). They're doing this with lots of concentrated acids, probably a solid to liquid pulp ratio of at least 1:2. Then, after they've rinsed the heck out of the converter, they try to precipitate the platinum out by making a toxic, nasty chloroplatinate. If it even precipitates at all, some get a small bit of precipitate contaminated by other metals, with likely full well half or more of the values remaining in solution, not realizing that under the best circumstances they'll still always leave a few tenths of a gram Pt/L in the leachate. Of course this is a solution that can't be used for re-leaching due to the precipitant having been added. Then, they have to use copious quantities of zinc or lye or both to cement the rest of the values presenting additional exposure routes, yield issues, etc. They may now be left with a value-barren saline solution of tetraammine-complexed zinc if ammonium chloride were used. This is all presuming they read far enough on how other people are doing them (not that it makes it right). Fun to waste treat. All of that for a few hundred dollars?

:roll:

I think I've had enough with the catalytic converter craze. It isn't safe, smart, or responsible to process these converters by aqueous hydrometallurgy without the use of very advanced, proprietary resins that are expensive and come with their own limitations. It is probably above 99.9% of members' capabilities here to safely work with platinum, let alone large quantities of the dilute sauce coming from converters.

I've spent a lot of time messing about with converters many different ways and I can say that they're best sold to someone else who goes to the smelter.

Lou
 
Lou said:
The issue people seem to have with all of this catcon stuff is that they're leaching a converter with at most 2,000-3,000 ppm Pt in it (2-3 g / kg). They're doing this with lots of concentrated acids, probably a solid to liquid pulp ratio of at least 1:2. Then, after they've rinsed the heck out of the converter, they try to precipitate the platinum out by making a toxic, nasty chloroplatinate. If it even precipitates at all, some get a small bit of precipitate contaminated by other metals, with likely full well half or more of the values remaining in solution, not realizing that under the best circumstances they'll still always leave a few tenths of a gram Pt/L in the leachate. Of course this is a solution that can't be used for re-leaching due to the precipitant having been added. Then, they have to use copious quantities of zinc or lye or both to cement the rest of the values presenting additional exposure routes, yield issues, etc. They may now be left with a value-barren saline solution of tetraammine-complexed zinc if ammonium chloride were used. This is all presuming they read far enough on how other people are doing them (not that it makes it right). Fun to waste treat. All of that for a few hundred dollars?

:roll:

I think I've had enough with the catalytic converter craze. It isn't safe, smart, or responsible to process these converters by aqueous hydrometallurgy without the use of very advanced, proprietary resins that are expensive and come with their own limitations. It is probably above 99.9% of members' capabilities here to safely work with platinum, let alone large quantities of the dilute sauce coming from converters.

I've spent a lot of time messing about with converters many different ways and I can say that they're best sold to someone else who goes to the smelter.

Lou
Click to expand...

Well at last someone else is singing from the same hymn sheet and a smart( very smart ) moderator.
I have tried for many years to get members to understand the dangers and difficulties of refining high grade PGMs let alone cats.
 
Great post, Lou. You hit the nail on the head. I've played with cat material and would never go through the hassle required to do this chemically. Also, I've never been convinced it's profitable. Also, it's not easy to get the rhodium.

If you search, you will find 6 or 8 patents that mechanically separate the metals in the cat material from the waste, by grinding and then using various separation methods (most used specific gravity) and equipment. Most claimed 80%-95% recovery, if I remember right. Even in the 80% range, I would be more than satisfied. I played around with these for awhile and had pretty good luck, as far as I could tell with my limited analytical resources at the time.
 
Oh Lou that's just so not fair especially when I've just got my first source of platinum. 8) 8) 8)

I'm going to go and cry in my beer now and sulk.....

:twisted: :twisted:
 
Jon if you have platinum metal just remove the base metals and recover the Pt, as Lou said PGM salts have many dangers, leave them to the pros!
 
nickvc said:
Jon if you have platinum metal just remove the base metals and recover the Pt, as Lou said PGM salts have many dangers, leave them to the pros!
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I know that Nick I'm just joshing with the guy. 8) 8) He'll come back and slap me if he feels like it. I've got broad shoulders and I won't cry too hard. :shock:
 
With PGM salts I don't josh they are nasty and downright dangerous, I don't want anyone hurt trying to refine PGMs leave it to those with the right equipment...
Jon I know you are playing but realise some things really can be fatal, we can't be seen to advise or condone dangerous methods or processes here on the forum, not all our members will understand your humour and would you really want to be responsible for harm to another, knowing you I guess not!
If you want to play do it by PM and not on open forum, we need to be united on the forum about any risks or dangers that newbies could try that are posted here.
 
As an aside may I say that newt has sent me a PM offering his apologies which I accepted with no issues, I don't take offence easily and only think of the well been and safety of all the present and future members of the forum.
 
spaceships said:
nickvc said:
Jon if you have platinum metal just remove the base metals and recover the Pt, as Lou said PGM salts have many dangers, leave them to the pros!
Click to expand...

I know that Nick I'm just joshing with the guy. 8) 8) He'll come back and slap me if he feels like it. I've got broad shoulders and I won't cry too hard. :shock:
Click to expand...


even in text form that was very funny (in a joking very funny way)
 
nickvc said:
With PGM salts I don't josh they are nasty and downright dangerous, I don't want anyone hurt trying to refine PGMs leave it to those with the right equipment...
Jon I know you are playing but realise some things really can be fatal, we can't be seen to advise or condone dangerous methods or processes here on the forum, not all our members will understand your humour and would you really want to be responsible for harm to another, knowing you I guess not!
If you want to play do it by PM and not on open forum, we need to be united on the forum about any risks or dangers that newbies could try that are posted here.
Click to expand...

No dramas Nick. You're probably right, people who know me will see the humour as completely separate from the safety issue. Others won't!
 

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