Refining catalytic converters [help needed]

[kurtak]

I've spent a lot of time messing about with converters many different ways and I can say that they're best sold to someone else who goes to the smelter.

Lou

And that is the bottom line fact & truth spoken with very real words of wisdom :!: :!: :!:

I spent right at a year working with a scrap yard (& as Lou said) trying "many different ways" to recover & refine the PGMs from CATs

Conclusion at the end of a years time & money invested --- "they're best sold to someone else who goes to the smelter." (notice there is a period at the end of that remark)

If you think you can process CATs on any volume & make a profit - FORGET IT - waste treatment alone will kill you - let alone time invested, chem & equipment cost

Its one thing to leach a "few" CATs to get a few grams of PGMs to play with to learn about PGMs - but there is NO WAY you are going to set up to process them on any volume to make a profit. (& that's a period at the end of that statement)

Kurt

 

[kjavanb123]

Kurt,

I read your post about how different methods to process cats were used and turned out, but there was a mentioning using induction cryolite as flux would seem less chemical waste and higher recovery rate. Is this a correct observation?

Also a friend of mine who is purchase ewaste and cats for Nippon PGM refinery in Japan also mentioned using Fe as collector metal.

Regards
Kevin

 

[kurtak]

Kurt,

I read your post about how different methods to process cats were used and turned out, but there was a mentioning using induction cryolite as flux would seem less chemical waste and higher recovery rate. Is this a correct observation?

Also a friend of mine who is purchase ewaste and cats for Nippon PGM refinery in Japan also mentioned using Fe as collector metal.

Regards
Kevin

Keven

First let me say I am sorry for not replying to the PM you sent me - I got "very busy" with other things

The short answer to your question is NO :!:

There is absolutely NO WAY (whether leaching or smelting) that a little guy like you or I can process CATs & make a profit

Why :?: --- because even if you recovered 100% of the PGMs its not going to be enough to cover the cost let alone make a profit & that's because even at 100% recovery you can not operate on a large enough scale to produce a "value added" product to sell at a profit --- that's how companies like Johnson Matthey or Nippon or BASF make a profit - they produce "value added" products - from the PGMs they recover & refine - which they then sell at well over spot & they do so on an "industrial scale"

Everyone "thinks" - that a company like Johnson Matthey is making all of its money because if they pay you $100 for a CAT then they are pulling $200 (or more) worth of PGMs out of that CAT --- that's just not true --- they produce "products" out of the PGMs they recover & refine & those "products" have an "added value" that are sold for WELL OVER spot - that's where & how they make money

So - because they make their money on the value added products they produce (& not on the actual recovery/refining process) they can pay top dollar for raw material

Big companies can pay 80% of spot for the PGMs in CATs because of the products they produce from it --- have you ever tried to buy a platinum crucible - or a platinum plated anode/cathode - a platinum crucible that is only 24 grams goes for several thousands dollars --- can you get several thousand dollars for 24 grams of platinum you recover from CATs ------- NOOOOO

The profit is not in the recovery &/or refining of CATs --- its in producing value added products made from the PGMs recovered & refined from CATs

Lou hit the nail on the head when he said --- "I've spent a lot of time messing about with converters many different ways and I can say that they're best sold to someone else who goes to the smelter."

Kurt

 

[g_axelsson]

If anyone thinks that a company like Johnson Matthey is buying cats to refine at a cost larger than spot, that's just not true. Any big company that could cut cost by buying metal at spot instead of refining would do that. Whatever their cost is to refine the cats after buying them at 80% we can be sure that it is not above spot or they would be paying less or buying from the refinery that could do it cheaper.

Göran

 

[kurtak]

Kevin (&/or anyone else that thinks they can process CATs & "PROFIT" by doing so)

Companies like Johnson Matthey - BASF - Nippon etc. do not make their "profits" from the recovery & refining end of processing CATs --- they pay top dollar to acquire this material in order to fuel a much larger business of making value added products out of the PGMs recovered & refined from the CAT material they acquire by paying TOP (scrap) dollar for it

Example - Products made by Johnson Matthey - http://www.matthey.com/about_us/productsandtechnologies

For every ozt of PGMs JM recovers from CAT material (which they pay a little under spot for) they make several thousand dollars "over spot" when it goes out the door as those "value added" products

In other words - if ALL JM did was buy CAT material to refine & sell as nothing other then refined PGMs - they would go broke paying the price they pay to acquire the CAT material --- & so will you

Kurt

 

[nickvc]

I tend to agree with Kurt the big boys do buy below spot from their customers or run metal accounts for their customers to pull off further products but the real margin is in those products and having a ready supply of raw materials on hand helps to reduce banking costs.
The refiners and metal dealers are certainly not charities and make good profits from volumes charges and re supply of material to the end users.
If Lou has said this can't pay I would really listen to him, if your doing it for fun or the experience fine of you have the right equipment but in volume you can't beat the payouts from the big companies who use immense arc furnaces running 24/7 . The values left in your material if even done really well will be of more value than the charges or retentions the big companies levy.
To get a good return simply de can crush and mix properly and assay before shipping.

 

[golden-puncture]

i did a mistake and i do not know what to do? as i get hcl/cl leach solition. then i commonly use zinc to get the black powder. later on in the stock pot i add some zinc and then i can not get zinc from local scrap yards, so i put some aluminium heat sink in the solution. and today as i checked the stock pot i am surprised that i have no black powder, its dark gray powder in the bottom and also some particals floating on surface. is it really a problem to use aluminium in the solution in which we already use zinc. as i know al will drop zinc also as zinc chloride. is there any way to remove zinc chloride from black powder! and what is this dark gray percipate! thanks and sorry for bad view of picture!and i dont know why its uploaded from down to upward!

 

[Yggdrasil]

Hi!
I did the same thing and have warned in another thread that it has to be done with care.
In my case I had a solution that was hard to cement with copper, and when I used zink, it plated the container.
The aluminum cemented fast and complete, but I was absent 2 weeks without removing the heatsink, which made the heatsink dissolve completely and form a grey thick sludge, maybe some kind of Aluminum chloride or oxide.
I managed to get most of the PGM-blacks out, but are now treating the sludge with alcohol and isopropanol to lower the viscosity and specific gravity. Then ultrasound to vibrate the particles. This seems to give some progress. Later I will roast it and redissolve in HCl and peroxide before I concentrate and drop it with pure Zink this time.
I believe the error with cementing first time was too dilute solution and not enough strirring.

My general idea still is that dropping with Al may be viable, but one has to be sure to stop it immideatly when it is done, to avoid this grey sludge.
I will test at a later stage some time :wink: