Virtual gold rush

[niks neims]

How does one spend their Bitcoins if and when the grid goes down?

or if you have no accesss to internet for example

you take a piece of paper and you write I.O.U. on it.
There you go, you have just emitted one physical jimcoin

 

[patnor1011]

How does one spend their Bitcoins if and when the grid goes down?

Lets say that there is The grid (what we call internet) and Bitcoin grid.
Bitcoin grid cant go down as it is decentralised running full blockchain with ledger of all transactions made in every core node out there. There are hundreds of thousands or perhaps even millions of them - I have no idea how many full nodes are out there I am sure approximate number can be found somewhere, I too run one. You would have to physically turn off every single one to accomplish this and that is just impossible to do.
If The grid goes down bitcoin would be the last thing you or anyone else would be concerned with, as we as a civilisation are so dependant on internet right now that major collapse will put world back in stone age within days.

What does one do if their Bitcoins just "disappear"?

Nothing. Your bitcoins cant just disappear.
Safe storage of btc depends on your definition of what you do consider adequate measure and result will be equal to your decission. Same with valuables you do have in your home. If you put them under pillow someone may be able to steal them. If you would have them in a big safe with armed guard it will be harder to take. Yes, btc was stolen or user accounts hacked but that happened only when you shared your private keys with someone or used some service like a trading exchange or some online wallet. There was no instance I know about when core wallet was compromised and bitcoin stolen. In fact you can use so long password as an additional measure to encrypt your core wallet that even nsa supercomputer would be not able to break in in any reasonable time.
And if the grid go down there would be not just bitcoins gone but all other things we take for granted like bank accounts...


To clarify things, I am not rabid bitcoin or crypto fanatic. I just see potential to make extra money or perhaps to get rich even. I got into it a bit deeper as I was introduced to it way before it started appearing in news. I am not crypto revolutionary warrior or blockchain fanatic trying to change the world. I look at it from outside and weigh in all pro and cons and at this very moment, it is very clear to me that sitting on a side is like watching a movie instead of trying to have a role in it.
Whether we realize it or not we are being inoculated by media, peer pressure, governments to do things in a way someone else decided we should do them for the "greater good". Is it in our interest or someone else interest? Very hard to say as "greater good" may not equal to your own good. To put it simply an outcome of some or most of our actions can only be visible in near or distant future but believe me, there are people who try hard to think for you and steer you in the direction they decided you should go.
I watched bitcoin and crypto nearly from the beginning and I simply decided that I want a slice of that instead of listening to others who try to tell me to stay away. You see with gold we are in the same train - if we all listened to Alan Greenspan and his definition of gold as old outdated and worthless relic we would not be bothered with recovery and refining. Not to mention he was not alone, people talking about investing in silver or palladium were outright dismissed as lunatics.
If bitcoin and current crypto's will not survive I could not care less. It was a good ride for me and interesting and valuable experience. I am not betting all my life savings or possessions on it but I would certainly not dismiss it and look for an excuse why I would not try to get it while others did.
From what is going on it is clear to me that this is a future and even now most of the money you do use are in the same form as crypto's and bitcoin - pure electronic thing existing in a computer only.
I told it to everyone who was interested to hear - now is the only time for common man to get their own money printing machine before it will be too late.

Niks, your post is quite long and with many questions so I will try to get to it later on when I will have more time and answer what I can or what I know.

 

[patnor1011]

All I write are just my thoughts or how I see things. I may be wrong but it simply worked for me so far.

Few additional points.
Bitcoin and some other cryptocurrencies are here to stay, if not forever then for some time anyway. I would not outright dismiss it as scam or bubble as they are quite similar to stocks, shares and commodities. 90% of goods traded on commodity exchange are never to be delivered or never exist quite frankly. Shares are quite the same - what is the value of facebook? I mean real value not perceived one.
How does the Wall Street make money? As I understand it simply by screwing small investors yet everyone considers it normal despite numerous people losing all they had. There is no shortage of new money coming in and new sheep to be skinned alive yet nobody is screaming scam or bubble all take it as part of "the game". How are cryptocurrencies and investing in them different from all of this? Control, that is the only thing. Staunchest opponents of cryptos are not governments but banks because they got used to the fact that the game was rigged and controlled by them but in this case, they are slowly losing control as you can trade cryptos without any bank in sight. Governments, on the other hand, are quite happy for every possibility to tax pretty much anything and yes, bitcoin and gains are being taxed. It is the legal obligation of everyone to self-declare any tax liability pretty much anywhere in the world. If you want you can try to avoid tax but do not be surprised if the government will come hard on you. I do not condone or advise anyone to try to avoid taxing their gains from cryptocurrencies. It is somehow possible and without going into much detail quite a lot of what companies usually do in current fiat system to reduce tax burden can easily be applied to lowering cryptocurrency gains tax liability too.

There is absolute fortune invested in cryptocurrencies at this time and it only grows. I am not talking about the speculative side of things but rather about the economy in global terms. I mean countless jobs created to support that system. From CPU and GPU manufacturers being able to speed up R&D to bring in new and better stuff even to drive invention forward. Countless ideas and movements being financed, cryptocurrencies helped speed up everything so much we can hardly grasp on everything that is going on right now not to mention what future bring.
Check this as an example of what is going on right now and this is just one of many crypto currencies around:
https://electroneum.com/2018/01/05/electroneum-signs-agreement-with-telecommunications-payments-giant-xius/

Cryptocurrencies are here to stay in my opinion, what form or shape only time will tell. If they would be such a bad idea there would be no CBOE or NYSE trying to get in. Not to mention many other countries actively working on implementing mechanisms to capitalize on current trend with Japan and China in a lead. Many governments already do use bitcoin, US government does too. They regularly auction seized bitcoins so if it is not valuable asset why would they bother. IRS is actively working on solutions to streamline taxing cryptocurrencies gains.

In my opinion (and many other people think that too) major banks stick together for the time being trying to undermine Bitcoin and other independent cryptos. Funniest moment in this is that they actually work behind the scenes implementing it all as they were unable to suppress it and it is way too lucrative not to get in that gravy train. If you want to see what I am talking about use Google and get some info about Ripple coin which is actively supported by some of the biggest banks.
At this moment all it takes is one rogue bank running away from the pack trying to get in other cryptos to get a slice of the pie and to gain an advantage and then most of them will rush in. That will be something we cant even imagine right now.

So, can bitcoin fail? Of course, it can but.... Can it go to 100k or even a cool million? Quite easy.
The only winner will be someone who is prepared for both outcomes.

 

[jason_recliner]

What does one do if their Bitcoins just "disappear"?

Nothing. Your bitcoins cant just disappear.

They certainly can. It's just improbable, unless you used a common passphrase. To steal them you either come up with the same passphrase, or take the (I think, approx) 2^128 chance, which is very improbable.
There are people who steal bitcoins for a living, bases on regularly scripting commonly used passphrases. Go on, generate a key set using "Password1" and transfer a little coin into the address. I promise it'll be gone before you can see it.

Back in 2013 I bought some hardware and mined a number of bitcoins. Last week I was sick, at home, for a couple of days and I was playing with a wallet passphrase generator. I tried a number of common phrases and in a couple of hours I had found a phrase, generated a key for an account that had 31.6 bitcoins in it. At about AU$20k/bitcoin. Its' still there now. How tempting! For if you know the private key, you effectively control the account. So I could easily transfer them to me, but ultimately everything is traceable. Apart from the (im)moral aspect, however would I withdraw them to cash without looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life?

 

[patnor1011]

I am going to try to answer directly in your post I will use red color. I am happy to offer my view of things as I find this topic and discussion simply fascinating.

patnor1011

first let me say that you have already impressed me immensely with your selfless contribution to GRF by your IC thread alone, so please forgive me that I must strongly disagree with you on this one, not on the risk taking - decision making part, but on specifically Bitcoin being a great investment but it is considering its performance in last 8 years or that anyone should consider getting in to the Bitcoin mining game at this point in time.... never said that, I merely pointed out that if anyone wants that it is still possible. I suggested that people should try altcoins mining.

then again I may just be misinformed, and your knowledge on subject is obviously superior, so if you don`t mind, could you educate me a bit? I cant claim to have any vast or superior knowledge I am just offering my subjective observations based on that I was and I still am "in the game"

1. when using top tier specialized mining gear - what are average power consumption? for example kWh/BTC. What are average time spent to mine one BTC per one device?
there are quite few devices available and latest one is antminer s9 which does consume roughly 1300W. To get 1 btc with just 1 device will take quite a time at this moment. Google bitcoin mining calculator and play with numbers.
2. Do I understand correctly that for any transaction via BTC to be verified (accepted) the current blockchain must be solved by some miner and proven to be correct (excuse me if I am rambling in terminology - in laymans terms - for transaction to be complete some miner (or many miners together) somewhere must verify it?)? correct, while it was easier and cheaper not so long ago due to increase of difficulty and rather dramatic increase of price cost in usd rose so it is no longer viable to send small transactions. There can be some alternative coin used for that but considering cost and time involved of transfering rather large amount of money bitcoin is far superior to any bank or money transaction service
3. To motivate miners to do their work and keep system going by mining (or verifying transactions) it genereates new BTC as reward, but to combat possible inflation each new BTC is much harder to mine? I do not think inflation is the term. I would rather say that difficulty is being increased or lowered in relation to number of miners and devices coming online. It is designed to keep mining going at steady predetermined pace.
4. For system to have any integrity there must be many unrelated miners, all agreeing on current blockchains being correct? correct
5. Irregardless on how many BTC are being transferred there is the same amount of work involved in proofing of transaction? Nope.
If there is more transactions involved they are not included to current block if it is already full but go to next one. There is certain maximum block size and the more transactions the bigger block is until default maximum size is reached, all following transactions go to following block. That is why system got bit slower than it used to be and that is why there are talks about increasing block sizes. If there will be consensus reached within community then this will happen.
6. How many BTC transactions are happening in world currently on average (transactions per hour, amount of BTC changing hands per hour)?
I cant answer that but it can be found online, there are quite a lot of sites which offer that kind of data
7. What are current wait-times for a transaction to be completed/verified? Are there any projections for future wait-times if system grows? How does it compares cost-vise and time-vise to the traditional money circulation (bank transfer, paypal etc.)?
well at this moment time processing your transaction depend on amount of fee you agree to pay for it. basic minimum fee mean it will take longer until your transaction gets processed. Larger fee mean priority and speed. To transfer larger amount of money bitcoin is far superior to any bank out there be it itme-wise or cost-wise. There are alt coins which offer much faster and cheaper transaction than bitcoin
8. What happens when (not if) work of proving the transaction far outweighs value of BTC being awarded for said work? Is there any plan of action or consensus in BTC mining community on this question?
as far as I understand it and from what I observed mining is business nobody mine bitcoins for the sake of it but rather to make money. therefore miners behave like nomads and move on chasing fast money. that mean that if there is alt coin which offers better return for mining power some amount of miners switch to that coin. That result in some slowdown but it also result in difficulty decrease therefore coin gets more attractive to mine again. Quite large segment of miners simply move with the wind. If you follow recent development in bitcoin community there are talks already in implementing some changes to address any possible future problems but due to bitcoin being decentralized it simply take more time to reach consensus or majority to define new path. Most obvious case was recent hard fork where few big miners attempted to implement what they thought is the best and result was creation of bitcoin cash altcoin. I am not going to mention other hard forks. Btc cash and all subsequent forks were just attempts of plain money grab - attempts to take away some of bitcoin value in my opinion. They suited mostly creators and did not added much for community or to make it all better for majority. BTC cash was totally miner focused hard fork
9. What happens when due to diminishing returns of mining there is concentration of mining power in few mayor players, say mining farms in politically sensitive regions like China or Russia - does that not threaten system integrity?
I do not think so. Most of the mining is already concentrated in china. BTC is decentralized in a sense that every full node carry ledger of all transactions so there is very little chance that system would be compromised by single player or single country. It may create some temporary problems but they can be solved as it already happened few times. Price is volatile and suspect to stuff like that but as it grows any problem encountered causes smaller ripples in a pond.
10. What happens if there is a disagreement on blockchain integrity, must every user check for solution themselves (as I understand it is much quicker and easier to check that chain is correct than to solve for a new one, but still...)?
Well that happens and it is dealt with quite seamlessly. Sometimes you mine on a block which gets orphaned that mean miner will not get the reward and any transaction included in that block get reversed. No big deal.
11. What happens if, due to a lack of miners, wait times surpass threshold to be useful in daily transactions or there is cost-of-transaction implemented that is greater than traditional money transfer costs?
I do believe bitcoin foundation already work on solution but due to number of people and entities involved it will take some time till consensus and decision are reached. I would say that there is big incentive never to prevent something like that to happen.
12. Do you really think that a system of exchange of values (currency) can exist on global scale in our civilized world where there is no way of accountability? I mean there is cash, of course, but most civilized nations in the world regulate cash deals very strictly, and with very good reasons. So basically, what happens if by some miracle BTC is officially universaly recognized and must come in to the fold of global economy, who is accountable, who can prevent or investigate criminal transactions, or even more prosaic, how are taxation implemented?
But there is accountability, it is called blockchain and it is a bulletproof solution to eradicate manipulation, fraud and many other problems which plague banking sector. It being slowly regulated and taxation is no issue here as you are required by law to declare income yourself. Try not to do it but it will be you who will suffer consequences. Investigating criminal transactions is also not that unthinkable we all seen succesfull prosecution of criminals using crypto's quite often. Same is happening with traditional banking. Some cases are harder to solve but it is happening. I know that there are stories in news about how criminals or North Koreans do use bitcoin and how bad it is but that is rather funny considering that number one choice of currency used in illicit trade by criminals and for all other nefarious purposes is still us dollar. It is still all the big banks who launder most of the money gained by criminals and not some crypto exchange.
Also I must strongly disagree that BTC is or can be used for store of value, I would bet that >90% of current BTC owners are treating it as short term investment hoping to cash in on price changes, it makes the global BTC market very very unstable...
I dont know. Why would they not cashed in whet it went from cents to 1000$? 4000? 10000? 20000? I would not say they are in for short term. Quite the opposite.
For Bitcoin to have any inherent value besides the speculative hype there must be some usefulness it offers to the world, a greater good if you will. It would be the case if BTC could become the one main cryptocurrency of the future, but as it stands, I just don`t see it happening. I mean, yes, it was the first (major) one, it basically introduced the world to the technology of blockchain and to the idea of cryptocurrency. But do you really mean to tell me that the old man Satoshi made it perfect in every way on his first try, and that there is no room for improvement? How long till there comes along some better-designed one, one that really can enter our daily lives, easing money circulation as we know it. I bet there is a lot of very bright minds working on it this very moment, and I would be very suprised if there already wouldn`t be plans made for a block-Dollar or chain-Euro; That is for shure, technology is here to stay, and we will use it one way or other, but I for one just can`t see BTC being around for much longer with all of it`s inherent flaws... and when any other cryptocurrency starts gaining significant ground - BTC will crash and burn, there is no value to it, it is just how the phenomenon of currency works...
Well I have no idea. The way I see it btc will be something like gold standard exactly because it was first. Of course, there are better functioning alternatives out there even right now but it is hard to see people abandoning gold simply because silver is more useful. People used gold for millennia and still refuse to abandon it. As for bitcoin flaws there is bitcoin foundation which works slowly but it is there exactly to find a way to make it better.
tl;dr:
BitCoin, cryptocurrency, dollar, euro, any of the currency has no inherent value at all, just ask any German in 1923 or any Zimbabwean in 2008; Money (currency) by it self is no more valuable than paper that it is printed on... So recognize Bitcoin for what it is = it is a tool (just like any currency) for exchanging values, if it is the best tool (best designed) for the job, then it is here to stay and there is a chance that BTC will hold some of their value, BUT if there is any room for improvement, well lets just hope that there is some gold to e-scrap in them antminers
I am in it exactly for that reason. The value. Why not to get some if there is still chance or time to have it? Do not we do exactly the same with everything? Working for money, collecting stuff, buying stuff to sell it higher... And at the end of the day it helps gold bugs too as antminers and similar machines get outdated pretty regularly so that gold from them will be there for grabs too

 

[patnor1011]

What does one do if their Bitcoins just "disappear"?

Nothing. Your bitcoins cant just disappear.

They certainly can. It's just improbable, unless you used a common passphrase. To steal them you either come up with the same passphrase, or take the (I think, approx) 2^128 chance, which is very improbable.
There are people who steal bitcoins for a living, bases on regularly scripting commonly used passphrases. Go on, generate a key set using "Password1" and transfer a little coin into the address. I promise it'll be gone before you can see it.

Back in 2013 I bought some hardware and mined a number of bitcoins. Last week I was sick, at home, for a couple of days and I was playing with a wallet passphrase generator. I tried a number of common phrases and in a couple of hours I had found a phrase, generated a key for an account that had 31.6 bitcoins in it. At about AU$20k/bitcoin. Its' still there now. How tempting! For if you know the private key, you effectively control the account. So I could easily transfer them to me, but ultimately everything is traceable. Apart from the (im)moral aspect, however would I withdraw them to cash without looking over my shoulder for the rest of my life?

You need to get access to private keys - to actual wallet.dat file and then you will have to crack password. People with serious money do store wallets in a offline computer so you will not be able to get access to it or they do use paper wallets which are unhackable. Some of new hardware wallets like trezor or ledger are also quite safe as you do store private keys in your device and any would-be thief will have to get physical access to it.
You can not generate private keys to wallet if you do not have access to wallet.dat file private keys are generated by the wallet and are stored in that file. To be able to get them you will have to crack password which is there ()if it is set by anyone who generated that file)
For what I know people use passwords with more than 30-40 characters and they are hard to figure out. New wallets do use string of 20-30 common words which is even harder to solve.

 

[niks neims]

I think that gold is not the gold standard because it was the first one, I mean humans were trading see-shells, sticks, cattle, women and back-rubs long before any gold nuggets came along, it became the universal gold standard precisely because it is the best tool for the task.

And it is basically what it all boils down to - Is or Is not BTC the best tool for value exchange in computer age?

If it is, then all should get on BTC train as soon as possible!

If it is not, then we must admit that eventually BTC value will be zero... You can still play the stock-market game and try to make some money but it is much much riskier if you know what the outcome eventually will be... I mean, someone will take it on the chin in the end, there is no way around it, it is like playing Russian roulette... or in the words of Dirty Harry: "Do, you [..]?"

 

[jimdoc]

A Crypto Website Changes Its Data, and $100 Billion in Market Value Vanishes


https://www.wsj.com/articles/a-crypto-website-changes-its-data-and-100-billion-in-market-value-vanishes-1515443100

 

[patnor1011]

That is a bit misleading title but what else you can expect from WSJ. What happened is better explained in reuters article:
https://www.reuters.com/article/uk-global-bitcoin/bitcoin-slides-as-website-drops-south-korea-prices-from-virtual-currency-rates-idUSKBN1EX1DB

I think I mentioned it, btc and crypto's experience wild price swings pretty regularly. That is what can make you rich if you are lucky, fast and your timing is right. Not bank savings account with 0.25% annual interest.

As I said, pretty exciting and interesting times we live in.

 

[patnor1011]

I think that gold is not the gold standard because it was the first one, I mean humans were trading see-shells, sticks, cattle, women and back-rubs long before any gold nuggets came along, it became the universal gold standard precisely because it is the best tool for the task.
Well, maybe you got it right here. It is called progress and we went from sticks to sea shells to gold and who knows, maybe bitcoin or something similar will be just another "tool of exchange". We all can see a great push for electronic cashless society and cryptocurrency may be just that.
And it is basically what it all boils down to - Is or Is not BTC the best tool for value exchange in computer age?
You tell me. For what I know you can transfer vast amounts of money in a fraction of time as opposed to traditional methods.
If it is, then all should get on BTC train as soon as possible!
I do not know. I say I did it as it looks interesting and do have potential to make me money. If not I will not be losing any sleep about it. You should always risk only what you can afford to lose.
If it is not, then we must admit that eventually BTC value will be zero... You can still play the stock-market game and try to make some money but it is much much riskier if you know what the outcome eventually will be... I mean, someone will take it on the chin in the end, there is no way around it, it is like playing Russian roulette... or in the words of Dirty Harry: "Do, you [..]?"
The bigger the risk = better reward if you get it right.

Someone will always take it on the chin. That possibility was always there and with pretty much anything you can think about. Countless of people are losing insane money daily on stock markets even as we speak. Well for what it is worth even you took it on a chin without even knowing or doing anything - millions of people lost their homes due to 08' mortgage crisis and we all are saddled with gigantic debt as we are the ones who have to pay for bailing out banks.
You like gold and there is nothing wrong with that. I just like to spread my investment to as many things as possible. That proved to be a good strategy at least for me. I am not even remotely interested in trying to convince you or anyone else to invest in bitcoin or cryptocurrencies. I am just offering my observations and experience to anyone who wants to listen as there is quite a lot of FUD and outright lies being thrown around daily in regards to bitcoin and other alt currencies.

Do not be so scared of Bitcoin, Ripple coin is much scarier. Ripple is actually endorsed and actually working with few big banks and did 35,000% :shock: just in a year. Imagine you got 100$ worth of ripple this time last year you could make 50k out of it.

 

[niks neims]

as there is quite a lot of FUD and outright lies being thrown around daily in regards to bitcoin and other alt currencies.

That is what all this have been about, only I would add - It seems to me that most people are having trouble understanding concept of Bitcoin or currency in general - No matter how many bitcoins (dollars, euros) there are in the world, BTC by them selves have no value, it is only representation of value, no matter how many bitcoins get mined, it does not change number of bread, beers or entertainment availible on this planet, what it does - it RISES THE PRICE of those goods and services in other currencies, devaluates them; if people of the world are assigning value to the BTC, then each dollar, each euro, each ounce of gold, all of the other currencies in use - it all combined loses the same value given to bitcoin... Of course real economy is much more complicated, but mathematically it is true - if there are 17kk BTC in circulation, representing value of 12 000 euro each, it means there is value equivalent to 2 040 000 000 000 EUR taken out of the pocket of each and every person on the planet that uses or owns any of the other currencies, be it dollars, euros, or gold...

edit: naugty word!

 

[snoman701]

If that's the case, you can have all the bread and beer.

I'm saving my money!


Sent from my iPhone using Tapatalk

 

[anachronism]

A bit like 1.5 million tonnes of paper gold being traded when there are only 180,000 tonnes of real gold in existence?

 

[niks neims]

or a bit like world being USD 70 000 000 000 000 in debt.... to whom? Martians? World of high finance is a crazy scary thing... It is incredible how fast it all can collapse and what repercussions it would have on our daily lives, un-regulated bubbles like BTC makes it all just that much more unpredictable :/

 

[UncleBenBen]

or a bit like world being USD 70 000 000 000 000 in debt.... to whom? Martians? World of high finance is a crazy scary thing... It is incredible how fast it all can collapse and what repercussions it would have on our daily lives, un-regulated bubbles like BTC makes it all just that much more unpredictable :/

All debt payable to our lovely central bankers. Step up, sign on the dotted line...

 

[patnor1011]

or a bit like world being USD 70 000 000 000 000 in debt.... to whom? Martians? World of high finance is a crazy scary thing... It is incredible how fast it all can collapse and what repercussions it would have on our daily lives, un-regulated bubbles like BTC makes it all just that much more unpredictable :/

I thought we do have a productive debate and please do not take this in a bad way or as a personal attack but honestly, when I see "unregulated bubbles like BTC" it frankly makes me sad. I see that you are somehow indoctrinated and simply refuse to look deeper into the rabbit hole but you simply must if you want to understand it.

There is a finite amount of bitcoin. It cant be replicated or duplicated or reprinted or increased as opposed to traditional currency. Yes, there are bubbles and we really should open our eyes and see them all around us. There was one recently and popped up right around 2008. 5 trillion dollars gone in the wind, 8 million people lost their jobs, 6 million lost their houses and that was just in the USA. Now multiply that several times if you want to get to the global numbers game.

Let us play with some numbers. There are 16 million bitcoins mined at this moment out of which 4 million are lost forever. You seem to be very alarmed at the thought of bitcoin at 10k a piece but let us make that boogeyman even scarier and pretend that OMG bitcoin is 100k a piece. That is just 1,3 trillion of $ and fairly well distributed all around a world. That means that even if bitcoin will go to 1 million and market cap would be 13 trillion and it will crash and burn... The end result will be smaller than recent mortgage crisis.

The mortgage crisis was not sorted, the problem was just slightly delayed but it is coming back again. Add in pretty much all that banking sector is offering like car loans, credit card debt, student loans, insolvent pension funds.........
Insurance is a bubble by definition, you will know it as soon as you try to claim on whatever policy you hold.
Bitcoin is absolutely nothing when compared to what we will have to deal with when the music stops.
The whole banking industry is rotten to the core with absolutely no oversight, trading is completely corrupted with no regulations whatsoever as they used '08 to dismantle last bits of regulations, corporations paying a fraction of % in taxes yet it all works perfectly for people who run things.
Of course, powers that be do not like crypto as they cant effectively control it.
An alternative is always frowned upon as it is disrupting status quo.

I feel like I am wasting my and other people time so I will no longer bother you or anyone else with my rambling. You seem to like to quote movies so I will leave with reference from Matrix and let you enjoy your blue pill.

 

[snoman701]

The mortgage crisis was not sorted, the problem was just slightly delayed but it is coming back again. Add in pretty much all that banking sector is offering like car loans, credit card debt, student loans, insolvent pension funds.........
Insurance is a bubble by definition, you will know it as soon as you try to claim on whatever policy you hold.
Bitcoin is absolutely nothing when compared to what we will have to deal with when the music stops.
The whole banking industry is rotten to the core with absolutely no oversight, trading is completely corrupted with no regulations whatsoever as they used '08 to dismantle last bits of regulations, corporations paying a fraction of % in taxes yet it all works perfectly for people who run things.

I think that you hit the nerve right there. And this is, as I said, why I don't understand ANY of it. It should have all collapsed long ago. Everything just delays it.

I don't know the answer, I'm not even sure I understand the question...but the whole discussion makes me feel ill. It concerns me for my daughters future.

I actually had this exact conversation with someone who I consider highly intelligent. Someone who held quite a few government approvals to work with high level confidential material. His answer was simple, teach her to independently solve problems, think outside the box, accept failure and communicate effectively while maintaining a sense of humanity and she'll be ok.

Now, taking stock of my life, I'm trying as hard as I can to see that she gets those traits, whether from me or others, because to a certain extent, I've accepted where I am in this bubble. I've got a steep cliff to climb, and she's seeing me continue to try to climb it...but I am determined to see that her slope is a little less steep.

My point is, with any of these currencies, whether they be seashells or unique numbers, they don't change your outlook. You can only see as far as your next obstacle that is taller than you, beyond that it's up to your imagination to determine what you deserve to see next.

I appreciate your posts on the topic Patnor, even if my opinion is still a bit cynical.

 

[snoman701]

I'll make this post a little less philosophical.

Given that many of us have piles of old technology, are there ways to capitalize on the new crypto currencies that don't involve buying $400 video cards? I assume that these are just the most efficient methods of mining, and even an older computer could earn you something. At any given time, I've probably got four computers going, but they aren't gaming systems, I don't even know if they are new to this decade (and we are near the end). I don't even mind losing a little on the electric bill side of it, it's at least more productive than my wife leaving the bathroom light on overnight.

 

[patnor1011]

I'll make this post a little less philosophical.

Given that many of us have piles of old technology, are there ways to capitalize on the new cryptocurrencies that don't involve buying $400 video cards? I assume that these are just the most efficient methods of mining, and even an older computer could earn you something. At any given time, I've probably got four computers going, but they aren't gaming systems, I don't even know if they are new to this decade (and we are near the end). I don't even mind losing a little on the electric bill side of it, it's at least more productive than my wife leaving the bathroom light on overnight.

Yes but the outcome will be most likely equal to what you do use with exception of pure luck.
What I mean is that there are coins out there which are designed to be mined with CPU only and are meant as a fair chance for anyone to have a bit of them. But even then no cpu is equal so new better cpu will get you more than old ass one. Still, it makes sense to have pc to use idle cpu power to earn something in the background.
There is also a considerable chance of making it big even with there coins most of which are called shitcoin due to many different factors and some people can get serious money if they chose to mine that right one. Which one? - That is a million dollars question nobody can answer. Pure luck, gamble and be in a right place in the right time is what makes difference. A lottery of sorts.

 

[niks neims]

I took the liberty to answer in your quoted post, it is much more convieniant

or a bit like world being USD 70 000 000 000 000 in debt.... to whom? Martians? World of high finance is a crazy scary thing... It is incredible how fast it all can collapse and what repercussions it would have on our daily lives, un-regulated bubbles like BTC makes it all just that much more unpredictable :/

I thought we do have a productive debate and please do not take this in a bad way or as a personal attack but honestly, when I see "unregulated bubbles like BTC" it frankly makes me sad. I see that you are somehow indoctrinated and simply refuse to look deeper into the rabbit hole but you simply must if you want to understand it.dude no problem, write your mind, I`wont be offended, all I ask in return is the same from you

There is a finite amount of bitcoin. It cant be replicated or duplicated or reprinted or increased as opposed to traditional currency. Yes, there are bubbles and we really should open our eyes and see them all around us. There was one recently and popped up right around 2008. 5 trillion dollars gone in the wind, 8 million people lost their jobs, 6 million lost their houses and that was just in the USA. Now multiply that several times if you want to get to the global numbers game.

Let us play with some numbers. There are 16 million bitcoins mined at this moment out of which 4 million are lost forever. You seem to be very alarmed at the thought of bitcoin at 10k a piece but let us make that boogeyman even scarier and pretend that OMG bitcoin is 100k a piece. That is just 1,3 trillion of $ and fairly well distributed all around a world. That means that even if bitcoin will go to 1 million and market cap would be 13 trillion and it will crash and burn... The end result will be smaller than recent mortgage crisis. There seems to be a mix in the nomenclature - It may be the language barrier but it looks like trillion can be either with 12 or 16 zeros, which one were you quoting, if it is the lesser one then the bitcon craze has already surpassed 08` crisis many times. Still it may be not that important as these numbers are in no way absoulute, because obviously they are just rough estimates

The mortgage crisis was not sorted, the problem was just slightly delayed but it is coming back again. Add in pretty much all that banking sector is offering like car loans, credit card debt, student loans, insolvent pension funds.........
Insurance is a bubble by definition, you will know it as soon as you try to claim on whatever policy you hold.
Bitcoin is absolutely nothing when compared to what we will have to deal with when the music stops.
The whole banking industry is rotten to the core with absolutely no oversight, trading is completely corrupted with no regulations whatsoever as they used '08 to dismantle last bits of regulations, corporations paying a fraction of % in taxes yet it all works perfectly for people who run things.
Of course, powers that be do not like crypto as they cant effectively control it.
An alternative is always frowned upon as it is disrupting status quo.

I feel like I am wasting my and other people time so I will no longer bother you or anyone else with my rambling. In no way I feel that my time in this thread is wasted, I enjoy our discussion, as BTC question has bugged me for a long time, It is actually very fun for me to try to discuss it with a knowledgeable person, outside of my information bubble....

You seem to like to quote movies so I will leave with reference from Matrix and let you enjoy your blue pill.

I guess my biggest problem is that you seem to want to counteract BTC to global banking, I, on the other hand would argue that it is just a sales pitch... You see without dwelling in to conspiracy theories (nose knows who is behind it all ), you must agree that there is always people trying to make money and great many of them don`t give a rats ass who gets screwed over in the process. So I see hype about bitcoins as just that - a scheme to earn money off of people who will end up with worthless zeros on their computer screen ...

You seem to refer to the 08` crisis a lot, well at its heart it wasn`t about housing, or credits, the real crap hit the fan when financial derivatives came at play, and the essence of it was that there were over evaluation of assets (mortgages, primarily), in other words - they were making money out of thin air, then borrowing against that money, making eaven more money out of nothing, I am shure all of involved economists knew perfectly well that this is not sustainable, but they all went along for the ride, it is just human nature I guess.... And it is all happening with BTC over again, by now Bitcoin is in the same place as "the Banks", eaven worse...

-Artūrs