As to finding a new buyer it depends on what you are getting of your present buyer, the other way to get your buyer to behave is to take a silver coin and get them to shoot that as 4metals suggested, it matters not what percentage it is so long as you know, coins are always spot on and can be used as your standard to test the xrf readings.
XRF outcome reliable?
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Slochteren
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Hereby foto off the foils from 7 forks, will be 3.5 gr in the end.
Well if your only paying for the silver you have a sweet deal going 
there are always thieves in our business and always have been but it's a balancing act, if you have to drive 150 kilometres to get a better return what's that cost in time and fuel, if your buyer is paying 95 percent and stealing, knowingly or not another 1-2 percent, it's not worth the effort to drive further on today's silver price, perhaps by educating him that you are not a novice will result in better payouts and perhaps some business off him in return... :shock:
there are always thieves in our business and always have been but it's a balancing act, if you have to drive 150 kilometres to get a better return what's that cost in time and fuel, if your buyer is paying 95 percent and stealing, knowingly or not another 1-2 percent, it's not worth the effort to drive further on today's silver price, perhaps by educating him that you are not a novice will result in better payouts and perhaps some business off him in return... :shock:Melt your own silver and bring a pure silver coin. Watch them use xrf.
Pretty hard to screw up silver cell
Pretty hard to screw up silver cell
In your XRF...sample is only 8 grams...melt and stir very well and then get an accurate for 2.2 kg....They melt a "blob" for XRF assay...and at 8 grams sample coud be a contamination from torch nose from the previous melt. A silver cell do not leave gold behaind (the 3 components: voltage....amps......temperature)..….saturation of electrolyte is for the eye.
There was no way his silver was even as low in purity as 999. Probably >99.99%.
Another example of XRF being misused.
Another example of XRF being misused.
nickvc said:Well if your only paying for the silver you have a sweet deal going
Don't deal with thieves. It doesn't help you. You might get better payouts, but it's extra stress that's simply not worth it.
I recently did a rush stone removal for a pawnbroker prior to going on vacation. It was mostly to determine if he's someone I want to do business with in the future. I didn't charge him going rate, and did it on trade for something someone charged me $10 after his repair failed. I gave him all the stones back except two, which didn't come out of the setting. I obviously gave him all the gold back. I told him this when I gave him the stones, and told him that there was likely a little gold (hardly enough to make my rate market) still within the setting that didn't break down since I'm not tumbling the chlorides.
The next morning at 7am, I got a text wanting to know where the remaining stones were because 25 of them were missing. It took him until the next day to tell me they actually were there (which I obviously knew), he just thought they were bigger than they were.
So, I was accused of theft over maybe $100 of stones at wholesale? (no clue, I'm not a stone collector) on a job I did basically for free, and was completely straight on.
I'm fed up with the people in this business, because every time you turn around, someone wants to accuse you of theft or cheating them.
That's the expense of this business. You do your best for someone and you still get accused of theft. Then on top of this you move your life savings back and forth in a series of transactions in unstable markets.
So what's the point?
Right now I've got $40 to my name and maybe 5 grand in various metals if I'm lucky....but I lost sleep after being accused of theft over a straight transaction. I feel like I'm probably done dealing with that aspect of the business. I don't have the backbone for it.
When I had that sort of customer I did what I always did and refuse point blank to deal with them again for any amount of money or however much they begged, the real problem is that many players have no idea of exactly what they have and over cook their expectations or are simply putting onto you what they would do.
I have told this story before but I had a good customer who I also considered a friend bring me all his gold strippings from his cyanide stripper, I asked him if he wanted to wait and watch it melted while we had a coffee, I’m glad he agreed as when the bar came out it was a lot less than he expected, I even reran the flux with thinners in front of him and gained very little more, his comment was that if he hadn’t seen the whole process from loading his material into the crucible and placing in the furnace to pouring and seeing inside the crucible after the pour he wouldn’t have believed the result, I even gave him a sample to have tested if he wanted to bother.
Another one, we refined a bag of sweeps for a neighbour who had split it all into three lots, we paid him first and he seemed pleased, a week or so later he started moaning about the charges as he had had the results from the other refiners, I got very worried until I decided to ask him who had actually paid him the most money, his response was we had but he expected the same charges which were ridiculously low for the work involved , he just couldn’t see that we had paid him fairly and charged appropriately whereas the others had charged very little and then stolen the rest and lots more to make the job worthwhile, again I refused to work for him again, how can you beat total ignorance and greed.
Simple moral, many people believe their material is much much better than it really is and are ready to point the finger and then there are those who because they are thieves simply can’t believe everyone else isn’t.
I have told this story before but I had a good customer who I also considered a friend bring me all his gold strippings from his cyanide stripper, I asked him if he wanted to wait and watch it melted while we had a coffee, I’m glad he agreed as when the bar came out it was a lot less than he expected, I even reran the flux with thinners in front of him and gained very little more, his comment was that if he hadn’t seen the whole process from loading his material into the crucible and placing in the furnace to pouring and seeing inside the crucible after the pour he wouldn’t have believed the result, I even gave him a sample to have tested if he wanted to bother.
Another one, we refined a bag of sweeps for a neighbour who had split it all into three lots, we paid him first and he seemed pleased, a week or so later he started moaning about the charges as he had had the results from the other refiners, I got very worried until I decided to ask him who had actually paid him the most money, his response was we had but he expected the same charges which were ridiculously low for the work involved , he just couldn’t see that we had paid him fairly and charged appropriately whereas the others had charged very little and then stolen the rest and lots more to make the job worthwhile, again I refused to work for him again, how can you beat total ignorance and greed.
Simple moral, many people believe their material is much much better than it really is and are ready to point the finger and then there are those who because they are thieves simply can’t believe everyone else isn’t.
nickvc said:
You mean just like this thread, where the seller had 3n silver and only got paid for 98% silver?
4metals said:
Why do you automatically think the buyer is a thief? You even said, XRF has to be calibrated against silver in order to analyze silver. So many people, including expert analysts, are unwilling to admit that there are limitations to the data that the super expensive machine spits out.
Lou said:
Exactly. XRF being misused. Could be a buyer that doesn't know the limitations of their equipment, but knows it always washes out in the end. Could be a thief as 4metals stated.
There are multiple lessons here.
The first that I got, is witness the melt. A trustworthy buyer WANTS you to have confidence in their process...and they are usually pretty meticulous in their process. Accidents happen, and they own them immediately.
The second...that gold could very well have been in the analyzed sample. If he didn't witness the melt, did he compare pre-melt and post-melt weights? Does the buyer have good melt hygiene? It's not hard to pick up a quarter of a gram from old slags if you are sloppy.
The third, both buyer and seller need to know limitations of analytical equipment.
My comments earlier are simply that I'm sick of the expectation of dishonesty in this field. It is like was said, everyone thinks their stuff is worth more than it is....and it's also like was said, even when it is worth more, then they think you should be able to operate on the margins of someone who is stealing from them.
I've never seen an XRF result that I would put money on - no exception.
Amateurbuyer18
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Question about XRF. I had a genuine Cartier bracelet tested using XRF it came back as being Iron and Nickel. My question is could this be an XRF error OR an issue with the piece? I spoke to Cartier and they've never heard of XRF technology.
jimdoc
Well-known member
Amateurbuyer18 said:
Iron and nickel would be magnetic, no need for an XRF for that test.
Was the XRF set up for a full elemental analysis? Some XRF systems are used to classify base metal alloys as steel and aluminium, in that case the owner might not pay for the extended data that is needed for precious metal analysis. If the XRF doesn't know about gold and other precious metals it does it's best to match it against the elements it knows about.
But as jimdoc wrote, a magnet is a quick test for checking that result.
Göran
But as jimdoc wrote, a magnet is a quick test for checking that result.
Göran
Call me a pessimist, but let's start with the original premise.
Well, salespeople may not be too knowledgeable on testing technology.
Dave
Do you know it's a genuine Cartier bracelet because you bought it at Cartier, or are you assuming that because it's stamped Cartier?Amateurbuyer18 said:
Tested where, and by whom? As others have said, an XRF at a scrap yard may not have the extra programming for precious metals. An XRF at a jeweler, pawn shop, precious metal buyer should.
As Jim and Göran have said, a magnet will answer that.
It could be either. Try the magnet.
Well, salespeople may not be too knowledgeable on testing technology.Dave
Amateurbuyer18
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I had it tested at a pawn shop. They use the XRF for precious metals. I did find out that Cartier has started using an 18k gold alloy with a high Iron content which is why I feel it may be the technology. The XRF strikes me as being less for jewelry retailers/pawns and more for professional refiners/mining etc or individuals familiar with metallurgy. It reminds me of scientific surveying equipment sure you can learn to use it but are you trained to know whether or not your results are accurate. I didn't even see the person who tested my jewelry put it on the machine in fact I didn't even know she was testing it until afterwards when she said it was Iron and Nickel. I was so stunned I just stood there looking stupid. It wasn't until later that I discovered they use this technology. I would think that if it is the gold standard for jewelry testing that it would be used across the board; thus the reason why I am wondering if proprietary alloys containing different metals or coatings could throw off the results? For example the Gold Iron alloy. Historically, Iron and Gold are like mixing oil and water; however, in 2010 an alloy was created using magnetism. I read an article where Cartier mentioned using an 18K gold alloy with high iron content; therefore, I am wondering if it is this same alloy created in 2010 AND if the iron as well as the magnetism made the XRF register the bracelet as Iron and Nickel?
Amateurbuyer18
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18K white gold alloy that Cartier developed with its external supplier; the alloy’s unusually high iron content allows its surface to oxidise and take on different colours when heated to different temperatures, much like how steel watch hands are blued by heating.
First gold-iron alloy shows power of magnetic attraction. GOLD readily forms alloys with the precious metals silver and palladium, but it normally blends with iron about as well as oil mixes with water. That has now changed, with the creation of a gold-iron alloy that is held together by magnetism.
First gold-iron alloy shows power of magnetic attraction. GOLD readily forms alloys with the precious metals silver and palladium, but it normally blends with iron about as well as oil mixes with water. That has now changed, with the creation of a gold-iron alloy that is held together by magnetism.
Amateurbuyer18
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I just checked using 2 different magnets and there's absolutely no magnetism....I'm stumped :?:
