AMS-Pro
Well-known member
How much working space do you have available from the filter canisters on the floor, to wherever the person was standing to take the picture?
consolidation of Loss Gold thread
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Gold Refinery posted this layout. So I assume he could move them out from the wall. 
AMS-Pro
Well-known member
I wonder how accurate that C.A.D. is, but it gives good idea.
Looking at the actual picture, it appears there may be about 9 in. to 1 ft. clearance in between the tanks and the wall. Using the tread depth on the stairs in the picture, and assuming the tread depth is within a range for a human foot to use it, we can figure it to be about 8 in. - 9 in. deep.
I would say it's possible to bring the tank, and tank pedestals away from the wall about 15 in. and install a 2 ft. wide catwalk for access for the rear. This will save some headache with rerouting a bunch of plumbing, and only require slight modification of fume plumbing above what the picture shows. Possibly a longer section of the horizontal supply pipe between tank two, and three (the right two tanks). A smaller access to add chemicals could be drilled in the large lid section using a hole saw/bit rated for metal, weld a threaded stack over that, and use a spring cap (like an oversized gas cap, or something you would see on a semi tractor fuel tank.). The hole would be 3 in. - 4 in. in diameter, and I would center it left or right, between the view window and the the outside edge of the lid. As most people tend to be right hand, I would say the right side would be the better option for comfortability.
The filter canisters would have to be slid further underneath the pedestals after the setup is brought out a bit from the wall, but you would not lose in the walking space from the side the picture was taken, and now you'd also have a 2 ft. cat walk for access behind it as well. I'm assuming the stairs were there for that already, but having a 2 ft. catwalk would surely make it easier, and safer.
The layout could certainly be improved a bit more drastically, however with cost, and relocate some of the larger equipment entirely, but that seems a bit unnecessary at the moment.
Looking at the actual picture, it appears there may be about 9 in. to 1 ft. clearance in between the tanks and the wall. Using the tread depth on the stairs in the picture, and assuming the tread depth is within a range for a human foot to use it, we can figure it to be about 8 in. - 9 in. deep.
I would say it's possible to bring the tank, and tank pedestals away from the wall about 15 in. and install a 2 ft. wide catwalk for access for the rear. This will save some headache with rerouting a bunch of plumbing, and only require slight modification of fume plumbing above what the picture shows. Possibly a longer section of the horizontal supply pipe between tank two, and three (the right two tanks). A smaller access to add chemicals could be drilled in the large lid section using a hole saw/bit rated for metal, weld a threaded stack over that, and use a spring cap (like an oversized gas cap, or something you would see on a semi tractor fuel tank.). The hole would be 3 in. - 4 in. in diameter, and I would center it left or right, between the view window and the the outside edge of the lid. As most people tend to be right hand, I would say the right side would be the better option for comfortability.
The filter canisters would have to be slid further underneath the pedestals after the setup is brought out a bit from the wall, but you would not lose in the walking space from the side the picture was taken, and now you'd also have a 2 ft. cat walk for access behind it as well. I'm assuming the stairs were there for that already, but having a 2 ft. catwalk would surely make it easier, and safer.
The layout could certainly be improved a bit more drastically, however with cost, and relocate some of the larger equipment entirely, but that seems a bit unnecessary at the moment.
AMS-Pro
Well-known member
A rough idea on just moving the equipment around. Obviously exact placement would have to be fine tuned for adequate working space, but this would be the general idea.
Edit: I had wrong picture inserted. This is the right picture.
After giving it some thought, and seeing actual pictures of the layout as opposed to the C.A.D. in corresponding threads, I feel you could actually pull the pedestals out much farther. Enough so that you could actually just rotate them 180 degrees and still use the same fume plumbing without modification. You may have to slightly modify the supply plumbing though.
Edit: I had wrong picture inserted. This is the right picture.
After giving it some thought, and seeing actual pictures of the layout as opposed to the C.A.D. in corresponding threads, I feel you could actually pull the pedestals out much farther. Enough so that you could actually just rotate them 180 degrees and still use the same fume plumbing without modification. You may have to slightly modify the supply plumbing though.
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Gold.refinery
Well-known member
Some questions about using SMB:
Is it better to add SMB in powder or water solution? Cold or hot?
Is the temperature of the solution containing gold chloride important to add SMB or not?
Is the pH of the solution important or not?
How long will it take for the SMB to precipitate the gold? (Compare with Hydz)
(My previous experience with Hydz was about 15 minutes)
Remember, 4metal advised to digest scrap at Tumbler overnight, and precipitation gold in the morning Then melt at noon.
Will gold complete sediment with SMB at this time?
Is it better to add SMB in powder or water solution? Cold or hot?
Is the temperature of the solution containing gold chloride important to add SMB or not?
Is the pH of the solution important or not?
How long will it take for the SMB to precipitate the gold? (Compare with Hydz)
(My previous experience with Hydz was about 15 minutes)
Remember, 4metal advised to digest scrap at Tumbler overnight, and precipitation gold in the morning Then melt at noon.
Will gold complete sediment with SMB at this time?
Gold.refinery
Well-known member
There is still some hydrazine left in the workshop already.
If we want to finish it and use it to precipitate gold.
Is it necessary to add urea for De-Noxx or not?
If we want to finish it and use it to precipitate gold.
Is it necessary to add urea for De-Noxx or not?
Gold.refinery
Well-known member
I have heard about the precipitation of gold with 1)hydroquinone and 2)hydrazine sulfate. I'm very interested in discussing this topic.
If you feel the need to use the hydrazine you could use it to convert your silver chlorides as well.
You’ve gotten everyone participating in this thread rolling their eyes right now!
For your own good and success of your operation concentrate on using proven methods as have been outlined here before you begin experimenting with different methods.
Gold.refinery
Well-known member
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Powder and temperature doesn’t matter
The solution temperature should be cool from filtration but the urea reaction will warm it. Temperature is not critical but cooler is better.
The pH of the solution after you have de-NOxed it is fine. Do not try to alter it.
Once the solution has no free nitric the reaction is rapid.
Yes. Remember even if the gold has not settled, of which most of it will have settled anyway, you are filtering this solution and the filter (if you have made the improvements suggested) will catch the fines.
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Before I give you the method, I should point out one major omission I see in your refinery layout. That is the lack of a hood in which you can carry out reactions safely. This method, as well as potentially using ammonia on gold sponge and many other steps you may wish to try, is not something to do in a bucket on the floor in the middle of the shop. A simple hood with exhaust, both scrubbed and fugitive, is important for both your experiments in learning refining and your long term health.
Reducing silver chloride w/ NaOH and Hydrazine
Wash this solution thoroughly, several times with distilled water till the pH paper shows mildly acidic and drain the water.
Next add 10% Sodium Hydroxide solution prepared with Distilled water and the white silver chloride turns blackish during addition of Sodium Hydroxide. Mix very very thoroughly & keep adding Sodium Hydroxide until the entire solution turns blackish & there are no white particles of Silver left in the solution.
Make a solution of 10-15% Hydrazine Hydrate with the distilled water and add gradually to the Black solution, the solution will fizz and you will see the Pure Silver rising to the surface. Keep adding 10-15% HH to the solution until the fizzing stops. Let Cool and start washing until the pH paper shows very mildly acidic.
Dry and heat to convert to Powder, and once dry Melt in Induction melter by adding a pinch or two of Boric Powder to get Pure 99.9+% silver.
Remember the first time through your Silver Chloride will contain undissolved Gold which you want to recover. Obviously the Silver will not be high purity.
The Silver Nitrate solution you get after dissolving the first run in nitric acid to recover the Gold is filtered and salt is added to the solution to drop the silver as Silver Chloride. This cleaner Silver Chloride you are starting with will produce the 99.9+% Silver for you to sell.
Remember what I said at the outset. Do this in a hood!!!!!
As AMS Pro says you will benefit from access to both sides of these tanks. They are made to be loaded and have chemicals added from the front side which unfortunately has the larger opening, causing fumes to escape because the exhaust is minimal to begin with.
A smaller access port will minimize fume leakage and, it is difficult to tell from the photo's, the viewing port on the top center may actually swivel to allow you to add chemicals there. Although it would be preferable to be able to see the reaction and add at the same time. By being able to view any reaction while slowly adding reagent would be the best option, keeping in mind one of the biggest mistakes made by refiners is over addition of reagents.
But access from the front, where you are not leaning over the exhaust duct and plumbing, would be better.
Something i was wondering about.... I also caught no fume hood, i was wondering.... does that room have a secondary exhaust fan for emergency blow downs to vent the room or is the only exhaust through the scrubber system.
One of the reasons I do not like “dedicated” refining systems is that they are set up for processes to go from tank A to tank B etc. If you do it exactly as it was designed to accommodate the exhaust is sufficient. But there is no accommodation for other processes which, as we can see at Gold Refinery, are really part of the necessary overall process.
A series of changeable blast gates can switch between ducts to accommodate changes allowing a hood with scrubbed drops. I prefer to set up a facility with scrubbed drops to scrub fumes generated and what is called fugitive emission which is a non scrubbed direct exhaust which evacuate any wisps of fume escaping the scrubbed drops and overall makes the work space more pleasant for the operator.
A series of changeable blast gates can switch between ducts to accommodate changes allowing a hood with scrubbed drops. I prefer to set up a facility with scrubbed drops to scrub fumes generated and what is called fugitive emission which is a non scrubbed direct exhaust which evacuate any wisps of fume escaping the scrubbed drops and overall makes the work space more pleasant for the operator.
Later on i assume he's going to switch from NaOH/ Hydrazine to NaOH/ sugar?
Another thing i was thinking you might need to explain is the flow process. This has to be calculated in the process just like the flow is calculated in the waste stream. This will add to the waste stream, but what i mean is he said he was planning on running 25 kg daily with i believe a 6.8 % silver feed? That's producing about 3.5 lbs of silver chloride a day. X 5 days = 17.5 lbs per week. I guess he could do smaller lots to keep up with it, but to me that's working myself to death. On the flip side if you don't do it in smaller lots it can be a a little harder in larger volumes, but doable if done right. Where are these conversions going to be done? Not in the tumbler you do gold in i assume? It could be i guess, but would require a lot of cleaning between bases and acids. I'm thinking of the agitation here. If it's done in that holding tank i don't think that mixer, don't know, would be enough to chop the chlorides up enough. You need something really fast and vigorous to keep those chlorides stirred or they just lay down on the bottom. Just a lot of questions i guess. You thought that gold was a pain in the ass! I do things a little different though, 4Metals do you see what i'm talking about?
Another thing i was thinking you might need to explain is the flow process. This has to be calculated in the process just like the flow is calculated in the waste stream. This will add to the waste stream, but what i mean is he said he was planning on running 25 kg daily with i believe a 6.8 % silver feed? That's producing about 3.5 lbs of silver chloride a day. X 5 days = 17.5 lbs per week. I guess he could do smaller lots to keep up with it, but to me that's working myself to death. On the flip side if you don't do it in smaller lots it can be a a little harder in larger volumes, but doable if done right. Where are these conversions going to be done? Not in the tumbler you do gold in i assume? It could be i guess, but would require a lot of cleaning between bases and acids. I'm thinking of the agitation here. If it's done in that holding tank i don't think that mixer, don't know, would be enough to chop the chlorides up enough. You need something really fast and vigorous to keep those chlorides stirred or they just lay down on the bottom. Just a lot of questions i guess. You thought that gold was a pain in the ass! I do things a little different though, 4Metals do you see what i'm talking about?
Gold.refinery
Well-known member
What do other members think about using Tumbler AR for soda-caustic and silver operations?
What is the maximum volume of silver chloride that the process can control?
Which Tank? Do you mean First waste water Tank with Mixer??
If I do it in small amounts, I can use Stirring Hot Plate. do you agree?
Don't even think about converting the chlorides in the tumbler, it cannot handle the volume of solids you will have to drain.
The best results I have ever had are in a polypropylene plastic cement mixer with no internal metal parts. If you can get a model that allows you to add a rheostat to slow the RPM down even better. They hold a lot of volume, they are easy to drain into the filter, and a flex pipe going to a scrubbed exhaust on a loose fitting cover allows it to spin and exhaust. I have used these to process lots up to 300 ounces of silver chloride.
Truth of the. matter is one of these tumblers can do everything the gold refining tumbler they have is doing.
The best results I have ever had are in a polypropylene plastic cement mixer with no internal metal parts. If you can get a model that allows you to add a rheostat to slow the RPM down even better. They hold a lot of volume, they are easy to drain into the filter, and a flex pipe going to a scrubbed exhaust on a loose fitting cover allows it to spin and exhaust. I have used these to process lots up to 300 ounces of silver chloride.
Truth of the. matter is one of these tumblers can do everything the gold refining tumbler they have is doing.
A nice small silver cell producing about 300 oz a week (40 oz a day) would solve the recovering the gold from the chlorides and dissolving twice issue. Smallest professionally made Silver cells produce 3000 oz a week. Small footprint and will run exceptionally well with silver reduced from chlorides with no copper to foul the electrolyte.
Gold.refinery
Well-known member
Good idea
