cementation with copper

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arthur kierski

Well-known member
Joined
Feb 10, 2008
Messages
1,130
Location
são paulo---brazil
to an ar solution which i suspected having some pm that was undetected with stanous chloride, i diluted and added copper plates and heated
the solution became brown(rusty collour) and this brown material passed thru filter paper----to the brown solution which already i suspected to be iron,i added sulfuric acid and the solution became dark green with no metal powder in it----this showed that no pms was present-----
the question is:does copper cements base metals? sometimes when using copper i obtain the pms (blacl powder) mixed with a white powder------i need help to clear my mind
thanks

Arthur
 
Hi Arthur!

The Reactivity Series. You need a copy of it. As I understand copper will drop silver, gold, Pt. Read about how it works in the posts or do a search on the internet. I have a copy, but cannot attach.

Try this. http://www.zephyrus.co.uk/thereactivityseries.html

philddreamer
 
This is from one of Steves post's.

Most Reactive
Lithium
Potassium
Calcium
Sodium
Magnesium
Aluminum
Manganese
Zinc
Chromium
Iron
Lead
Copper
Mercury
Silver
Platinum
Gold Li+
K+
Ca2+
Na+
Mg2+
Al3+
Mn2+
Zn2+
Cr2+, Cr3+
Fe2+, Fe3+
Pb2+
Cu2+
Hg2+
Ag+
Pt2+
Au+, Au3+
Least Reactive
 
arthur kierski said:
to an ar solution which i suspected having some pm that was undetected with stanous chloride, i diluted and added copper plates and heated
the solution became brown(rusty collour) and this brown material passed thru filter paper----to the brown solution which already i suspected to be iron,i added sulfuric acid and the solution became dark green with no metal powder in it----this showed that no pms was present-----
the question is:does copper cements base metals? sometimes when using copper i obtain the pms (blacl powder) mixed with a white powder------i need help to clear my mind
thanks

Arthur

Arthur,

As the copper saturates the PM solution, the PMs are cemented and copper I chloride (off white to gray colored) is precipitated as the acid levels drop. Add some 31% muriatic acid to the white powder and see if it dissolves.

Not sure about the brown sludge, but it sounds like an iron compound to me. Could be the copper you are using is an alloy and contains a metal higher than iron on the chart.

Steve
 
thanks Steve for the coments----the copper i use are those square heat sinks from cpus which i first leave in a hcl bath to eliminate the tin coloured plating---they are normal copper to me(i do not know if they are an alloy) i have many kilos of this deplated copper heat sinks
regards from
Arthur kierski
 
The cpu heat spreaders are a usually tungsten copper alloy.

They also may contain some nickel.

Steve
 
arthur kierski said:
steve,but i cemented pms with them-----only this time iron??? formed but dissolved in h2so4

Arthur,

Something about the material or the solution had to be different, i have no idea what.

Steve
 
Steve, I've seen mentioned numerous times that all of our washes should be put into a stock pot for later processing to catch any minute amounts of PM's. I've seen mentioned to put HCL washes, water washes, etc into the pot. What kind of container would be good to use as a stock pot? Also can all of the chemicals that we are using go into the pot? I'm assuming that nitric won't go in there because most often we are boiling off the nitric or chlorine before precipitation. I'm asking because once I'm done reading and digesting everything I can, that I don't want to put into the stock pot anything that would cause a mess later...or worse explode or catch fire or fume like a failed lab experiment.

thanks

Rusty
 
rewalston said:
Steve, I've seen mentioned numerous times that all of our washes should be put into a stock pot for later processing to catch any minute amounts of PM's. I've seen mentioned to put HCL washes, water washes, etc into the pot. What kind of container would be good to use as a stock pot? Also can all of the chemicals that we are using go into the pot? I'm assuming that nitric won't go in there because most often we are boiling off the nitric or chlorine before precipitation. I'm asking because once I'm done reading and digesting everything I can, that I don't want to put into the stock pot anything that would cause a mess later...or worse explode or catch fire or fume like a failed lab experiment.

thanks

Rusty

Rusty,

Great question.

I don't know how everyone else does it, but I keep a few five gallon buckets for the various by products. One for copper nitrate, one for SMB left overs, sulfuric cell dilution settling bucket, etc. I typically let them sit uncovered in an open air outdoor space which is protected from the rain. I add the same type of reaction left overs to the appropriate bucket.

Once a bucket is full or evaporated to saturation (a crust starts forming), I siphon off the bulk of the liquid and process it for disposal or recycling as the case may be. The sediment in the bottoms of these buckets is processed for precious metals along with any PM's that I harvest from the solution as part of the disposal process.

Once the disposal or recycling routine is completed, I combine the neutralized liquids and responsibly dispose of the separated solids as appropriate. The combined solutions are put in 35 - 55 gal fiber drums for hauling.

The only exception to this is solutions that contain the ammonium ion. These are immediately acidified, settled, siphoned, and then combined with the appropriate bucket of waste liquid. The solids are processed for PMs (usually silver).

Here's a simplified overview of the buckets and their uses and or by products:

1. Copper Nitrate solutions from sterling silver dissolution:
a. recycled as silver cell electrolyte by reverse plating out copper sponge
b. recycled as dilute nitric acid by precipitating silver chloride with HCl
c. metallic copper sponge from a. above.
d. recycle as Aklai nitrate by neutralizing with base.
e. by product of d. above is hazardous hydroxide or carbonate of base metal. Can be fluxed to form base metals in large furnace or disposed of on amnesty day at landfill.
f. Regenerate nitric acid by destructive distillation of the copper nitric in a glassware apparatus. Brown gas is bubbled into cold distilled water. Copper Oxides can be converted to Acid Peroxide with HCl.

2. AR or HCl-Cl solutions after SMB:
a. Residual PMs precipitated by Cu saturation, let settle, and siphon, PMs in black powder.
b. Mixed metal Copper sponge cemented with scrap iron.
c. Neutralized with Lime, filtered, disposed of in drums.
d. Filtered Iron hydroxides / carbonates dehydrated to solids.

3. Sulfuric acid Cell diluted electrolyte
a. Siphon bulk of liquid off of settled residual black impure gold powder.
b. Copper harvested by carbon electrodes from diluted liquid.
c. Recycled as cell electrolyte by dehydration until concentrated.

4. Acid Peroxide Solutions:
a. Regenerate with air bubbler or peroxide additions.
b. Regenerate with electricity forming copper sponge.
c. Treat as 2 above for complete disposal.

5. PGM solutions:
a. 1-2 L beaker as appropriate for volume of PGM leftovers.
b. Dehydrates over time forming colored salts.
c. When enough colored salts are present, rehydrate and process with zinc.
d. Zinc left over solutions combined and dehydrated.

There are more left over solution types, but these are the most common ones. As a general rule of thumb, don't mixed residual solutions from different types of reactions. Lie stays with like.

Hopefully some of the other guys will post there 'stock pot' set ups ofr comparison.

Steve
 
Thank you Steve for the response. A little bit on the confusing side, but once I get my feet wet (so to speak) things should start making more sense.

Rusty
 
Since most of what I work with is HCL/peroxide. I put all my solutions into a 5 gal bucket with some iron and let it set, hard copper crust has formed and almost all the steel has been eaten so maybe one more go round and then new steel. But I like the electrical recovery better just don't have a good place to set it up right now. I have to set up a seperate bucket for my SMB solutions after Steve told me not to mix them.
 
rewalston said:
Thank you Steve for the response. A little bit on the confusing side, but once I get my feet wet (so to speak) things should start making more sense.

Rusty

Rusty if you are having problem with the abbreviations you need to read the Guided Tour Link and study the reactions list. Don't worry with time it will all start to make sense, just take it slow, don't reinvent the wheel, and be safe and responsible.

Steve
 
Steve.

Do you see an issue in including the ammonia rinse directly in the stock pot. The majority of the ammonia is already boiled off and the stock pot is already acidic.
 
qst42know said:
Do you see an issue in including the ammonia rinse directly in the stock pot. The majority of the ammonia is already boiled off and the stock pot is already acidic.

The ammonia rinse likely contains silver that's why you use the ammonia rinse, to remove any silver chloride. If you add it to a chloride containing stock pot directly, the silver chloride will accumulate in the bottom of your stock pot along with any other precious metal sediment.

In my opinion, make the ammonia rinse acidic with HCl, let it settle, then siphon off the liquid and add the liquid to the acid stock pot. You'll harvest a nice clean silver chloride this way that is well suited for direct reduction with lye and sugar, or any of the other method silver chloride conversion methods. If it's only a small amount of silver chloride store it under a layer of water until you accumulated enough to warrant conversion.

Steve
 
Steve, would you please amplify on #3 in your bucket list. As I am now trying to learn the Sulfuric Cell process from start to finish, I will make some assumptions and you can correct me if they are wrong please.

Sulfuric acid Cell diluted electrolyte
a. Siphon bulk of liquid off of settled residual black impure gold powder.
b. Copper harvested by carbon electrodes from diluted liquid.
c. Recycled as cell electrolyte by dehydration until concentrated.

a. Siphon bulk liquid and set aside for next cell run. (this gets no treatment)
b. "diluted liquid" this is the solution left over from the washes and filter cleanup and consists mostly of water, but may contain HCL and Suluric.
b. "Copper harvested by carbon electrodes". Is this done in the same manner as the stripping cell, except using Carbon Electrodes? Do you have these available?
c. After the copper is harvested, the solution is dehydrated until concentrated. The concentrated residue can now be mixed back in with the original electrolyte for another cell run.

Thanks again for your help.
 
Nopyrite said:
Steve, would you please amplify on #3 in your bucket list. As I am now trying to learn the Sulfuric Cell process from start to finish, I will make some assumptions and you can correct me if they are wrong please.

Sulfuric acid Cell diluted electrolyte
a. Siphon bulk of liquid off of settled residual black impure gold powder.
b. Copper harvested by carbon electrodes from diluted liquid.
c. Recycled as cell electrolyte by dehydration until concentrated.

a. Siphon bulk liquid and set aside for next cell run. (this gets no treatment)

Read the heading again and you will see this section applies to the Diluted Acid from the cell and washes. This section does not apply to concentrated electrolyte, which is the only portion that is directly reusable. The diluted portion must be made free of black sediment, free of base metal, and concentrated by dehydration before it is reused.

Nopyrite said:
b. "diluted liquid" this is the solution left over from the washes and filter cleanup and consists mostly of water, but may contain HCL and Suluric.

No HCl should be in the mix. No where in the sulfuric cell process do we add HCl.

Nopyrite said:
b. "Copper harvested by carbon electrodes". Is this done in the same manner as the stripping cell, except using Carbon Electrodes? Do you have these available?

Yes, Yes. Carbon is not the only available choice of electrodes, but is an inexpensive option.

Nopyrite said:
c. After the copper is harvested, the solution is dehydrated until concentrated. The concentrated residue can now be mixed back in with the original electrolyte for another cell run.

Correct. In practice you will have already used the original concentrated electrolyte in another batch long before you perform the clean up process above on the diluted electrolyte. I accumulated my diluted electrolytes in a five gallon bucket for settling. Once I get a bucket full I siphon, let dehydrate to approximately 50% or less of it's original volume in the heat of the day (actually a few days depending on the weather), plate out the base metals, then force dehydrate the balance of the water using a large heated beaker or bucket heater in some cases.

Steve
 
HAuCl4 said:
Thanks Steve for a great recycling post of procedures.

It's the great questions that make possible the great answers. The hardest part of helping each other is proper communication. When members ask insightful questions everyone benefits, including me. By typing out my processes I often find ways to improve them.

This thread speaks volumes to the benefits of members doing their home work before asking questions. When the question is based upon a real life puzzle, we get real world solutions. When questions are posed from hypothetical events the solution is only as good as the hypothesis. Too often noobs (no offense to noobs ) jump in head first and ask the age old questions all noobs have before they gain experience in the real world. If these same noobs had taken the time to study the forum passionately, they would be asking questions that help not only themselves, but everyone. It's an excellent example of how noobs can contribute to the forum simply by asking an educated question.

Steve
 

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