cementation with copper

[lazersteve]

Indeed. What do you think of making ferrous sulphate instead of throwing away iron carbonates, hidroxides, etc.?

I've actually toyed with the idea a bit but I have not implemented any of my ideas on a large scale. I've done some small scale base metal hydroxide and carbonate precipitations on my spent solutions, but the hazards of the by products must be considered on larger scales. I feel the key is to immediately convert the hydroxides and carbonates to less hazardous forms before storing for later use. Then you would have to remove the bulk of the water from the left over solutions to obtain useful reagents for the next run.

The up side to this approach is that you will have a continuous supply of reagents if you design systems to use or sell all of the ingredients and by products in a closed loop process. In several of my videos I make mention of these 'closed loop' uses for certain reactions.

Steve

 

[Nopyrite]

Lasersteve, thank you. I did a re-read on your bucket list and sure enough #3 says "sulfuric acid cell DILUTED electrolyte." I must learn to pay closer attention. I also seem to have gotten off track trying to use HCL to clean-up black residue from the cell. I note that you do not mention the use of HCL in any of your Sulfuric Cell posts. I believe I picked this up from another poster's method on a different thread. I am now back on track, however, I have erred in my ways as I have used a small amount of HCL on my cell residue. The black substance is now sitting in a beaker of muddy looking water, sulfuric and HCL. Could you advise as to how to proceed with this material? Also, the diluted electrolyte in the bucket contains some HCL. is it polluted beyond further use?

 

[lazersteve]

... I have erred in my ways as I have used a small amount of HCL on my cell residue. The black substance is now sitting in a beaker of muddy looking water, sulfuric and HCL. Could you advise as to how to proceed with this material? Also, the diluted electrolyte in the bucket contains some HCL. is it polluted beyond further use?

The diluted solution is fine to have residual HCl in it. When you boil it down the HCl will go 'up in smoke' as it is volatile and sulfuric acid is not.

The black powder is treated as listed here:

Black Powder From Cell

I used to do preliminary washes and such, but found no difference in the end product quality since I dissolve all gold twice anyway. So now days I go straight to AR after several hot water wash, settle, siphon, cycles.

Steve

 

[HAuCl4]

Do you guys think that an AR or HCL-CL closed loop be economically implemented, that would require little/none new chemicals and produce little/none wastes?.

I have been thinking around this process for a while and can't find a solution that satisfies me to improve this loop (as initially posted by Steve):

2. AR or HCl-Cl solutions after SMB:
a. Residual PMs precipitated by Cu saturation, let settle, and siphon, PMs in black powder.
b. Mixed metal Copper sponge cemented with scrap iron.
c. Neutralized with Lime, filtered, disposed of in drums.
d. Filtered Iron hydroxides / carbonates dehydrated to solids.


The copper/nitrate loop I can see it producing little wastes and requiring only a little nitric and Hydrogen peroxide, and re-generating most of the nitric acid for re-use with electricity, etc.

But what about the HCL/Au/Cl loop?.
I can see how one can do away with the nitric by using CL or NaCLO, but not much else. What would be the best way to re-generate chemicals AFTER precipitation of the gold with whatever.

Any ideas?.

 

[Harold_V]

Do you guys think that an AR or HCL-CL closed loop be economically implemented, that would require little/none new chemicals and produce little/none wastes?.

I have been thinking around this process for a while and can't find a solution that satisfies me to improve this loop (as initially posted by Steve):

2. AR or HCl-Cl solutions after SMB:
a. Residual PMs precipitated by Cu saturation, let settle, and siphon, PMs in black powder.
b. Mixed metal Copper sponge cemented with scrap iron.
c. Neutralized with Lime, filtered, disposed of in drums.
d. Filtered Iron hydroxides / carbonates dehydrated to solids.


The copper/nitrate loop I can see it producing little wastes and requiring only a little nitric and Hydrogen peroxide, and re-generating most of the nitric acid for re-use with electricity, etc.

But what about the HCL/Au/Cl loop?.
I can see how one can do away with the nitric by using CL or NaCLO, but not much else. What would be the best way to re-generate chemicals AFTER precipitation of the gold with whatever.

Any ideas?.

Please understand that I'm the world's biggest skeptic, and I am not a chemist, so I may not understand your question in a meaningful way. Having said that, here's my comment;

What you propose appears to me to be akin to perpetual motion. It is well known that we must use energy to transform from one state to another. Even in an efficient system, there are losses. If you can replace the losses with such things as electrical power, or even by a heat source, I can see how it might be possible----but I'll believe it when I see it, and even then I'd have serious questions. Sort of like the BS thing that was going around the net for a while, where a guy lights a small lamp by inserting nails in two candles, then attaches a lead from one nail, through the (small) light, then the other end to the other nail, inserted in the other candle. He lights the candles, you hear a snap (switch being thrown, and out of sequence) and the light is lit. Did anyone ever wonder how a complete circuit was established, and why such a setup, even if it did produce voltage, would provide flow when each candle was wired identically? Wouldn't each of them be either + or -? Seems to me you must hook + to - to establish flow. What am I missing?

Show me! 8)

Harold

 

[Barren Realms 007]

Do you guys think that an AR or HCL-CL closed loop be economically implemented, that would require little/none new chemicals and produce little/none wastes?.

I have been thinking around this process for a while and can't find a solution that satisfies me to improve this loop (as initially posted by Steve):

2. AR or HCl-Cl solutions after SMB:
a. Residual PMs precipitated by Cu saturation, let settle, and siphon, PMs in black powder.
b. Mixed metal Copper sponge cemented with scrap iron.
c. Neutralized with Lime, filtered, disposed of in drums.
d. Filtered Iron hydroxides / carbonates dehydrated to solids.


The copper/nitrate loop I can see it producing little wastes and requiring only a little nitric and Hydrogen peroxide, and re-generating most of the nitric acid for re-use with electricity, etc.

But what about the HCL/Au/Cl loop?.
I can see how one can do away with the nitric by using CL or NaCLO, but not much else. What would be the best way to re-generate chemicals AFTER precipitation of the gold with whatever.

Any ideas?.

Please understand that I'm the world's biggest skeptic, and I am not a chemist, so I may not understand your question in a meaningful way. Having said that, here's my comment;

What you propose appears to me to be akin to perpetual motion. It is well known that we must use energy to transform from one state to another. Even in an efficient system, there are losses. If you can replace the losses with such things as electrical power, or even by a heat source, I can see how it might be possible----but I'll believe it when I see it, and even then I'd have serious questions. Sort of like the BS thing that was going around the net for a while, where a guy lights a small lamp by inserting nails in two candles, then attaches a lead from one nail, through the (small) light, then the other end to the other nail, inserted in the other candle. He lights the candles, you hear a snap (switch being thrown, and out of sequence) and the light is lit. Did anyone ever wonder how a complete circuit was established, and why such a setup, even if it did produce voltage, would provide flow when each candle was wired identically? Wouldn't each of them be either + or -? Seems to me you must hook + to - to establish flow. What am I missing?

Show me! 8)

Harold

I have never herd of that one with the candles. If you have a link to it I could use a good laugh.

 

[Harold_V]

I have never herd of that one with the candles. If you have a link to it I could use a good laugh.

I haven't seen it in a while, and didn't keep it, although it was a great source of a belly laugh, to think how stupid some people must think others are. It was present as if it was sincere, and you're supposed to figure it out. I can see it all now---people plunging nails in to candles, attaching their wires, ighting their candles and wondering where the light went.

I wonder----could this have come from a candle maker, somewhere?

very heavy sigh!

H

An after thought---you may be able to find it on youtube. I think that was the source, but I'm not sure. Look for candles and making electricity. Might help, not sure. Do report what you find, if you do. Others might enjoy a laugh on this one, too.

 

[HAuCl4]

It would consume, at least electricity. And probably a small % of the chemicals need constant replenishing.

Lazersteve has achieved this for the silver/copper/nitric circuit.

I was wondering if a loop for the HCL-CL-Au could be devised. All the possible solutions I have explored, consume one chemical to produce another. Like for example:

1-Leach Au with HCL+NaCLO (bleach) to produce AgCL, HAuCl4 and other chlorides.
2-Filter the solids, extract with BDG.
3-Drop the Au from BDG using H2O2. Recycle the BDG. Recycle HCL?
4-Drop the Pt group in solution from 1 with Copper (after BDG extraction of course). Filter solids.
5-Recover the copper and HCL with electricity?. Recycle the HCL.

In the process above one consumes electricity, H2O2, and leach to produce more HCL than is needed, some of it can be recycled into the process, so it is not a closed loop.

Ideas?.

The nitric loop is closed mostly. It consumes nitric and electricity to process copper and silver, and mostly all nitric is recycled.

 

[Barren Realms 007]

I have never herd of that one with the candles. If you have a link to it I could use a good laugh.

I haven't seen it in a while, and didn't keep it, although it was a great source of a belly laugh, to think how stupid some people must think others are. It was present as if it was sincere, and you're supposed to figure it out. I can see it all now---people plunging nails in to candles, attaching their wires, ighting their candles and wondering where the light went.

I wonder----could this have come from a candle maker, somewhere?

very heavy sigh!

H

An after thought---you may be able to find it on youtube. I think that was the source, but I'm not sure. Look for candles and making electricity. Might help, not sure. Do report what you find, if you do. Others might enjoy a laugh on this one, too.

I will do some searching and see what I can find.

 

[HAuCl4]

Found this link that wastes no H2O2 but H2 instead:
http://catalogue.nrcan.gc.ca/opac/extras/unapi?id=tag:catalogue.nrcan.gc.ca,2010:biblio-record_entry/7898219/-&format=htmlholdings-full

Hardly an "improvement" imho.