1 oz gold ingots - suisse credits

[jimdoc]

I think the big refineries are more apt to screw you
over than a smaller local company. You just have to
be lucky to have a local refinery that knows how to
treat their customers. Most big ones just don't care
because they are always busy. I have only dealt with
one company twice and after the last time I felt like
they shorted me a bit, so I plan on refining everything
myself from now on.
I for one would have been really happy to have Harold
as my refiner, if he was local that would have been even
better to see and learn from someone like him.

 

[goldsilverpro]

I'm with Harold. Not everyone will skin you. The problem is knowing which ones will and which ones won't. You never know. I once worked for a huge refinery and they were thieves. A friend of mine was the plant manager and had to do the settlements. He was forced to steal, by the owners, and broke out in hives every time he did it. When I had my refinery, I didn't steal. I did what Harold did and built a clientele. Although I did lots of electronics and jewelry scrap, my specialties were gold from jet engine parts and x-ray film. I got it in by the truckload.

 

[dixie]

I have mailed off my gold a few times to the big guys and I always felt as iff my check was $75-100 short.

I'm 50 and when I was 10-12 years old I worked at the local tobacco auction house. At night when most everyone was gone the owner had employees remove tobacco from the sheets and throw it on the floor. The floor sweepings was then recovered and sold by him. The farmers did receive payment on the original weight but the big tobacco companies who bought the sheets were not one's fool. I'm sure that they built into their auction prices the lost weights.

Long before the days of the internet I bought and sold rare coins and firearms through approval service. There was less than troughfull folks as well as out right theives then and guess what, they still are less than truthfull folks and out right theives now.

I also took offence that mwren felt that he needed to blast the little guy here and it seems as if he was trying to discredit him in some way. As a new member of the fourm he should have held his tounge in disrespect to an established member.

Oh my gosh, thats 3 cents worth.

MIke

 

[Irons]

The free advice that Harold and others have given here, you couldn't get from a big refiner at any price. I've been screwed by the big boys too, that's what brought me here.

I was invited to go to the diamond exchange in NYC once. Everything there is done on a handshake. There's a bulletin board on the wall next to the door with mug shots of all the people who have done a bad deal and have been banned. That's the way the precious metals business should be.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Little guy, big guy. It makes no difference. If the refiner has larceny in his heart, he's going to steal. He can do so and get away with it. He knows that you don't know exactly what you have unless you melt all the gold together, sample, and assay the gold before selling it. What are you basing the $75-$100 loss on? Are you calculating using the stamped karat or, are you deducting the required 1/2 karat?

Don't send small (less than 10 oz, maybe) amounts to a refiner. Find a direct buyer. It is best to take the stuff directly to the buyer - you can then negotiate and walk out, if desired. You might find an honest buyer that you could ship to. Catfish buys a lot and sends his stuff to a place in Dallas that pays him 98%. He swears he gets a straight deal. Search for Catfish's posts - some are gems. PM him - he's a good guy. I might note that a large volume buyer can make a good profit at 98%. He will make maybe 100 oz melts and sell to an even larger refiner/buyer for about 99.3%+ of spot. His goal is to turn the money as fast as possible.

If you have to send to a refiner, I can probably advise you on how to get a better settlement. But, every deal is different. You'll have to first tell me, in detail, what you have. We can go from there. Photos will help. Someday, I'll write a long treatise on how to deal with refiners. So little time, so many treatises.

 

[mwren]

I did not mean to offend nor was it my intention to start a heated dicussion, I merely wanted to find answers to my questions.

If I have angered you in some way please accept my apoligies as it was not my intent.

 

[goldsilverpro]

mren,

If I purchase the 25cm of 18k 22gauge round wire from Jack Smith and the karat is off even by a couple percents, he doesn't answer the phone or return messages then I get the short end of the stick.

Also the worst part is that I know a bunch of people who can produce high grade 24k grain and they sell it below spot but when you need 14kwg solder or 10kpg tubing or 18kgg wire or .925 flat sheet or something else they cannot keep a consistant product nor do they have any intrest in correcting the error

How do you know the material is a couple of points off? Color? Workability? Assay? Assay is the only way to really know.

Find a more consistent supplier and maybe pay a little more for it.

 

[mwren]

workability, hardness, melting temp, then test with acids and needles, if there is ever any question we perform an assay, and follow up with the results.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Do you have your own assay facilities? How do you perform the assays?

Surely there's someone that can provide you with consistent materials. What about one of the huge, old, precious metals companies. Does your present gold supplier ever provide material that's 2 points HIGH - I doubt it.

 

[dixie]

(my very first gold deal)
several years ago when gold was about 310 I bought a large lot (1500dwt)of brand new gold from a reaailer who was going out of business. I really went to buy his showcases but he sold me his gold before I left that day. 100% chains and gold bands. (no sivler heads or stones) all 10k)

I made a deal on the phone with one of the big guys, we agreed that the gold could be a little less than .417 so we used .412 as a guidline and he assured me that this was the lowest that I could expect. We agreed on a 98.5% x spot pay with no fees whatsoever.

Check coomes in the mail in about a week, 143.00 short of the lowest mark set.

(fast foward a year or so) Sold Scrap 10k 14k 18k to another big name business. Now when I package and weigh my scrap I place all the unmarked gold (example a 14k top part of a ring that has had the bottom removed to use in resizing another ring) ( or a 14k chain that has been broken and has no ends with markings) in with the 10k scrap. This way I should always get a little more than is calculated.

Guess what, after 3 deals with this same company my check always came up 75-100 short of the low mark.

This is when I changed to the buyer who pays cash in hand, based on the pre refining weight.

But I am still on the lookout for someone who will give me an honest deal and a slightly better payday. .50 a dwt make a difference when you have 2500 at the time.

 

[Lou]

I want your opinions on this, especially anyone who's ever dealt with Midwest Refineries.


Y'all remember that 30.2g piece of platinum I mentioned a while back? Well I shipped it off to Midwest Refineries the week before Christmas, they got it Christmas Eve Day, and I followed up on them receiving it Wednesday afternoon. Real nice folks to talk to, the fellow told me since it was under an ounce they'd just buy it out right, and that they'd take $30 of the bid price when they went to buy it. Also told me they'd use XFS (x-ray fluorescence spectroscopy) to determine the percentage of Pt, but he warned me that it's +/- 3%. I've worked with those before, and know a little bit about those machines, and the accuracy is better than 3% either way, a lot better. But, benefit of the doubt, I don't know what machine they're using, I'll play along...

Anyhow, they settled on Friday, $30 under the 1535 spot, so 1505/ t. oz. OK with me.
My piece was .972 troy ounces, and they agreed on the weight. Now what I don't get is the following math:

.972 troy ounces of pure platinum X 89% payable of $1505 should be
$1301.95.

Yet for some reason, the check I received was $1210.00.

They said no assaying fees or fees of any kind, no order too small or too large. So why am I $91.95 short? Shucks now, aren't they making enough money, 10%, when they probably sell it for 99% of spot to Heraeus or Johnson Matthey? I know the piece was pure as I tested it after I processed it, so purity isn't a question.

Is there some sort of sales tax I'm not aware of, I can't think of any, it's a scrap piece and it's under 3000 dollars or whatever the limit is?


I'm seeing smoke, do any of you see a fire?

 

[jimdoc]

Lou,
That is who I dealt with also, and I wasn't
happy with them this time either.
I have to find the receipt they sent me for
the details, but I felt they were not fair at all.
They also bought the platinum outright from me,
it was a ring and a crucible lid.
I can't believe I can't find the receipt, when I do I
will let you know the details.
Jim

 

[Lou]

Hum now, well I just feel like if they want my business, they do their part to at least explain their math. I'll call 'em up on Wednesday, it's quite possible I'm just being stupid. Still, I don't think there's any tax on such a small amount.

Harold and the pro's would know better. I've only really dealt with people that buy the pure stuff for spot and above and that goes for catalysts, or Kitco, and the local jewelers.

 

[catfish]

Hi Dixie:

I buy and sell karat gold my self and have for some time now. I saw your post and you are not the first one to have come up short on refined gold from karat gold. The main reason is that karat gold is not necessarily true percentages. (24/ 14k = .583). The Federal Trade Commission is the only organization that regulates the gold content in karat jewelry in the USA. If you will check these standards required in the manufacture of karat jewelry, you will find that the tolerances can vary from + or - 5% of karat value in the manufacture of karat jewelry. . It doesn’t take a rocket scientist to figure what side the manufacture is going to take. Always the low side. Example 14karat gold 14/24=.583 x -5% = 029-.583=.55. As you can see that the end result of pure gold yield from 14 karat is closer to .55 than .583 and 10karat is .39 and etc.

So this being the case, I always figure when I send my gold to the recycler this expected yield and I have never been disappointed yet. I also agree that there are some unscrupulous recyclers out there. You have to have an honest one to deal with.

I also refine gold too. I have done many batches of karat gold and very seldom I will ever come out with 99.95 pure gold the first time around. I always refine it twice and then weigh it and it will always have some loss. The actual output will always be a little less than the old expected amount of 14/24 math. I have discussed this issue with my recycler on many occasions and he tells me that they just about always tell their sellers to discount the totals expected pure (99.95) to .39 for 10 karat, .55 for 14 karat and etc.

When I buy gold on a tight margin, I always explain to the seller that I buy only at .39, .55 or .71 for karat gold. Most of the gold I buy is on a 60 to 75% buy price and I just go ahead and buy at the old numbers just to keep from having to explain to the seller all this math.

I hope this helps you to maybe understand why you are coming up short on your refined gold.

Catfish

 

[jimdoc]

Here is pictures of my receipt from Midwest.

I sent them 24g of double refined gold from
electronic scrap and 1.5g .333,2.3g 18K,5.4g
14K, and 9.7g of nice old yellow dental gold.
So their figures don't make sense to me.

I also sent 41.3g of palladium wire, and 56.8g
of palladium/plus school rings. So the palladium
figures don't make sense to me either. I know
that I am unsure of the rings alloy, but the wire
should have been close to pure palladium.

 

[Irons]

$91.95 is just over 6% of the value. They said the XRF test would be +/- 3%. That's +3% for them and another -3% for you=6%. 8)

 

[dixie]

Catfish, I understand what you are saying and I was aware that most jewlery is a little on the light side k-wise.

My beef was that the guy I personaly talked to from the company set the floor and he was the "expert" then payoff was less than their lowest expections.

What do you think about my selling by weight arrangment?

Payoff is currently>>>>>

.0190 x spot per dwt. for 10k
.0265 x spot per dwt. for 14k

Can you think of or recomend someone that could improve my position and still make a fair profit for themselves?

If so please pm me.

Thanks
Mike

 

[jewelerdave]

I have been useing numbers that are similar to catfish's and dont have the disappointment anymore.
The first few lots of Karat gold I bought always came up short of the .585 you expect. I adjusted my calculations to .56 and most of the time its right on the money for the math. Always always always set your expectations low that way you dont get the disappointment.
Also always expect mis stamped things,I try to avoid charms in particular for this reason, I find that many gold charms are under karat by a lot! I dont know if it was done in malice or just a bench jeweler stamping the wrong thing in an item. But the fact is that no matter how big or small a company is there are both honest and dishonest people out there.

 

[goldsilverpro]

Watch stuff that's made up of more than one piece. I've seen chains with a stamp on the clasp, but with plated links. Only the stamped part, the clasp, was karat gold. In the same vein, check pocket watches carefully.