Any hope? Advice needed. All metals mix in AR

[John.k]

I will try to make a long story short.

I started collecting escrap about two years ago. A bit from here, a bit from there. And still collecting and still learning. Reading the forum and all recommendations posted... I already have a nice amount of pins, boards, chips etc.. and next summer, when the outside temperature will be helpful with all the processes, I´m planing to start doing the magic...

but....

about the same time as I started collecting a friend of my had a big luck. He was working as an IT guy and his company was liquidating a big call center. And in his hands stuck about 100 computers, 10 big servers, 10 RJ45 switchboards and 5 big phone switch boards (PBX) with many many slots with many many shiny pins... together with more then 100 IP phones and more then 100 cell phones. I remember how I was jealous about his luck... It was all for free... He spent four months depopulating the boards, cards, rams, chips, switchboards, cell phones and all the stuff. Till here was all good... He had nice piles of pins, fingers, chips, cell phone boards etc...

and here starts the tragedy. When he was ready with the preparation of his sorted piles I was still in the process of learning (and I still I´m) but he started straight the chemistry... and... he started with HCL... and as he found, that it does not take care of the cooper, he added HNO3. He was working on many batches together. Sometimes he added more, sometime he added less HNO3. You can imagine what happened. Almost everything has been dissolved. In some of the batches more, in some less. He poured the batches in 2 litre PET bottles. In some there were small gold flakes, in some there were white powder on the bottom in some gray, in some black... The liquids were from light blue, through green to black... and from this point he tried to precipitate the gold. so he started adding... ehm... in some batches FeSO4·7H2O, in some Na2S2O5, in some (COOH)2 and he used even some NaOH. As he saw the youtube precipitation videos, he thought, that any and each of those precipitants will drop the gold... and only the gold.. as it didnt worked as in the youtube videos, he started mixing... so in some batches there were two or even three of them. And the result? he has about 25 litres of... something. He is not sure what is in which of the bottles. some are darker, some are lighter. Some green, some blue, some black. some have white, or black, or brown or gray or... something on the bottom... He fiddled with them for about half year during the weekends. And now he has all the bottles in the cellar for about an year. And realized, that will not be able to deal with it. So he came to me, if I would like to take it... for free...

Sure I would like.. but... is there any hope to finish what he started and messed? Even I´m really learning for some time, I dont know what should be done. I believe, there should be a nice amount of gold in it... but many many times more cooper and probably even iron. Silver and other metals as well. All the e scrap is in those bottles. He promised me to send some pictures of the bottles. And some more details of what and how he did...

Any advice what could be done? If I get the bottles, then I will start "anything" with them first in a few months, in summer. So still some time to learn more and make good planes.

Thank you in advance for any ideas or help or.. something

Regards

Jan

 

[FrugalRefiner]

I wouldn't worry too much about pictures in this case, and I wouldn't rely on his recollections about what he did with any of the bottles, since it sounds like so much has been mixed together.

First, I would get everything out of those PET bottles. They're OK for storing beverages, but not the chemicals we deal with.

Next, I would start testing each batch with stannous chloride. If there are solids in them, I suspect the solutions will test negative, as any values will be among the solids. For any that test negative, you can decant the solutions and proceed to treat them as waste. If any test positive, add some pieces of copper and allow the values to cement out of solution. Then decant the barren solutions and treat them for waste as well.

Then store all the solids as you continue to study. When you feel comfortable that you know how to proceed, you can start treating the solids to recover any values.

Good luck!

Dave

 

[4metals]

Go to the library and read how to treat your waste. Then filter and save everything before cementing with copper. Cement the liquids and check with stannous. When there is no more stain filter it again. Save all the solids and incinerate them along with the first batch of solids.

Finish the waste off with iron. And continue reading. You won't lose any of your values either in solution or on the bottom before you started. Be patient and it will pay off.

Keep us posted.

 

[John.k]

First, I would get everything out of those PET bottles. They're OK for storing beverages, but not the chemicals we deal with.


Dave

Thank you for the headups guys... I should have the bottles in my hands today or tomorrow... I´m really curious what I will get

and can I ask.. what is the best way to store the chemicals? Its a lot of them and I need to keep them stored for another few months...

I will have to prepare some stannous chloride. I was sure I will need it only in a few months from today... so this will probably now be the first step...

Jan

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Heavy HDPE will hold up much better. 5 gallon buckets work well, or smaller sizes if they're available.

Dave

 

[maynman1751]

Just remember to store all of these containers where, if there are gases escaping, they will not destroy everything around them. Outside would be preferable. Be safe!!!!

 

[kurtak]

John

Sounds like a potential good payday in the end but it will require some work

Also I would like to say congratulations on being the smarter one here by taking the time for doing your research "first" before diving into trying to process - the result is that because he didn't his loss is now your gain

I agree with what others have said about the PET bottles not being the best for storage & therefore getting the solutions into 5 gallon buckets

Because the guy started with HCl & then added nitric they now need to be considered & treated as AR --- the question is which solutions - if any - had enough nitric added to dissolve the base metals & as well put gold &/or PGMs into solution & which ones did not have enough nitric added to dissolve base metals thereby causing PMs to cement out & therefore no PMs left in solution

In other words the first thing you need to do is figure out which solution may have PMs still in solution & which ones don't

So the first thing you need to do is test each 2 liter bottle of solution with stannous chloride --- if it test positive for gold &/or PGMs dump it into one 5 gallon bucket (the solution along with the solids in the bottom of the bottle) --- then any solutions that test negative for PMs dump into a second bucket (again the solution along with the solids)

Then - because you are going to store all of this until you are ready to process it - put the lids on the buckets (tight so they can't be accidently kicked over & spilled) but be sure to drill or punch a "small" hole in the lid so they can breath & not build pressure --- then put the buckets in a "larger" tote & put the lid on it --- mark each bucket PM positive solution - PM negative solution

If all of the solutions turn out to be all PM negative - or all positive that's fine to - ether way (some positive some negative - or all negative - or all positive) they are all now ready to store till you are ready to process & therefore have plenty of time for the solids to settle back out

Also some of the bottles may have pressure built up in them - so open them "slowly" (just crack the lid) - if they want to foam out when you crack the lid have a catch container handy (plastic bucket) to set it in until it is done foaming &/or the pressure is released

let us know how this first round of stannous testing goes (some positive some negative - or all negative - or all positive) then we can help you with where to go next with the recovery of the PMs in what you have

Edit to; - & I the mean time keep up on the good start you already are doing in your research

Kurt

 

[g_axelsson]

I have one objection to this...

So the first thing you need to do is test each 2 liter bottle of solution with stannous chloride --- if it test positive for gold &/or PGMs dump it into one 5 gallon bucket (the solution along with the solids in the bottom of the bottle) --- then any solutions that test negative for PMs dump into a second bucket (again the solution along with the solids)

If you have solutions negative of PM:s it could be because it's only nitric or hydrochloric acid and gold in the sediments. If you mix them you could put the precious metals in solution. Better then to filter off any sediments from the barren solutions (sediments might contain precious metals) and only mix the solutions without sediments.

Göran

 

[jason_recliner]

Following up the point about the risk of "crossing your acids", it means therefore that each unlabelled bottle would need its own filter.

 

[kurtak]

I have one objection to this...

So the first thing you need to do is test each 2 liter bottle of solution with stannous chloride --- if it test positive for gold &/or PGMs dump it into one 5 gallon bucket (the solution along with the solids in the bottom of the bottle) --- then any solutions that test negative for PMs dump into a second bucket (again the solution along with the solids)

If you have solutions negative of PM:s it could be because it's only nitric or hydrochloric acid and gold in the sediments. If you mix them you could put the precious metals in solution. Better then to filter off any sediments from the barren solutions (sediments might contain precious metals) and only mix the solutions without sediments.

Göran

Goran

You make a good & valid point --- however - IMO it really doesn't mater - in fact should what you say happens I would consider it a good thing - Why?

Because what he is receiving is a bunch of small messes (a bunch of 2 liter bottles - each its own little mess) & when added up its one big mess

Before he can recover "anything" of value - the values need to be put into solution - both barren & non-barren (negative & positive) solutions need to be "stock pot" treated (copper cemented) as even a barren testing solution can be holding "trace" values

So - should the mixing of several small messes into one larger mess result in dissolving "more" values you are accomplishing two tasks that are in your favor (1) you are loading a very low recovery solution with more value there by increasing your value recovery in the copper cementing (stock pot treatment) & (2) you are using the existing chems to do so

I would rather treat the "whole" solution mess - loaded with as much value as possible in order to see a higher recovery - & then treat the "whole" of the solids mess as its own big mess --- rather then try to figure out & chase the values in each small mess on its own

In fact I recently received a very similar mess & that is just how I am going to approach it --- there is no way I am going to try to figure out what each little mess is & then chase after what might be a few grams here & a few grams there --- its all going to get dumped together as one big mess & the solids allowed to settle - the solution will then be siphoned off - the solids filter/washed - the washes add to the solution & then stock pot treated --- the solids will then be tested & treated accordingly -- the result will be a greater value recovery in less time by treating it as one big mess - instead of trying to recover a lot of small values from a lot of small messes

Not saying what you suggest is wrong (&/or what others might suggest) as there is certainly more then one why to approach a mess such as this --- I just prefer to consolidate as much small down & dirty stuff into one larger down & dirty treatment so that my time & effort results in something that at least resembles a pay day at the end of my work

Kurt

 

[MarcoP]

I would cement any values with copper, each in is own bottle. Decant and filter the acid ready for waste treatment. Any powder rinsed well and now finally mixed (rinse water goes with the waste acid). Do each step for each bottle, yes, one by one to get acquainted with filtering, metal displacement and waste management.

We are still learning and a mess to deal with is not an easy task, plus our knowledge and comprehension is limited. I would make it simple and get rid of the big volumes straight away while concentrating the values. I don't have much room, so in my case this would be the only option. I can't and I don't want to deal with more then 1 liter batches, AP and waste being the only exception.

Incinerate. Then store, or process with AR or HCL/bleach, and your still working with small volumes.

Marco

 

[John.k]

Thank you everybody for your responses. I already received the bottles and will start the battles

I need to get some pure tin. and prepare some testing solutions. And of course I need to get some better bottles.

For the cementing process. I have some nice pieces of cooper which I would like to drop into the bottles... How long does it take to cement? ... I know.. hoke... I´m still reading... really... but till now I didnt come to this. Its not an easy reading. But I´m going slowly through it... I was just wondering (and will try to find it in the book) how long does it take to cement.. lets say .. if there is 1g of gold in the solution (and none or maybe some other metals).. how long does it take to get it from the solution using cooper. and what are the factors which change the time? temperature? acidity? dilution? what else could it be...

and does it matter if the solution is PH < or > then 7? The only thing I could test till now was the PH of the solutions. And made the bottles breath a bit..

Once again thank you so much for the help... I hope I will be able to test the solutions next weekend. And change the bottles... and then again back to reading

Jan

 

[FrugalRefiner]

Cementing likes agitation. If you just drop some copper in a bucket and leave it, it can take a long time. If you provide plenty of agitation in the solution, the process moves along much more quickly. 4metals described a simple setup in the Fuzz Button Interconnects, need some advice thread.

Hoke is a slow read the first time through. It gets easier, and you'll understand a lot more, each time you read it.

The solution should be acidic for cementation.

Dave

 

[butcher]

Cementing values from solution, a displacement chemical reaction, where metal ions in solution will gain electrons from a metal higher in the "reactivity series of metals" (or a more reactive metal) than the metal of the metal ions that are in solution.
Example cementing silver from solution using a more reactive metal like copper, where copper gives up electrons to the silver ions in solution, so that the silver ions become silver atoms which clump together to become silver metal powders and stick to the surface of the copper or fall to the bottom as powder. the copper giving up its electrons the atom of copper goes into solution as copper ions (as a salt of the metal and acid of the solution (copper nitrate salt, with copper and nitrate ions copper cations, and nitrate anions.

Solutions should be acidic, a tiny bit of free acid is not a bad thing, too much free acid just consumes more of your copper buss bar, as for how long it takes, it would depend on several factors, surface area of the metal, and how easily the ions in solution come into contact with the metal (where the ions can receive electrons donated by the copper bar) movement of solution or stirring of solution will help this contact process, other factors like passivized coating on the copper (corrosion, oils...) or a buildup of reduced metals coating the copper in a thick layer, basically blocking the contact process of metal ions in solution coming into contact with the copper metal of the copper buss bar, temperature may also play a small role...
Normally it does not take that long, minutes, hours or a day, longer if conditions are unfavorable, chemical reactions do not go by time limits, the reactions take as long as the reactions take, just something you cannot put a time on.


Some things help, having the solution slightly acidic, hanging the buss bar in solution, having the solution in motion (stirring bubbling air...), using clean copper with a large surface area, not too thin or small where pieces of copper will fall off as some of the copper goes into solution as copper ions, brushing or shacking the cemented metals off of the buss bar when they build up to a thick layer (to expose fresh copper metal to the solution).

 

[John.k]

Guys, you are really great...

Its a pleasure to learn from you guys.. to learn from this forum.. and from Hoke Even the last one is the most difficult.. yet... but hope it will be more and more easy as the time goes and as the times of reading multiply

anyway. I will drop the cooper bits in the solutions on weekend. As I have it on my cottage, I cant move the solution more often then once per 7 days (ok a few more times during the weekend)... but as I have enough time, then I believe there is a lot of time to let it cement (about 3 months ) So even moving the solution only now and then... it should work... I hope...

most of the bottles are acidic... the one which is not, I will add a bit of acid into (should be nitric, right? or can be HCL?)...

and of course, I will be checking this thread and will update it every time, there is something to add here

Best Regards

Jan

 

[FrugalRefiner]

most of the bottles are acidic... the one which is not, I will add a bit of acid into (should be nitric, right? or can be HCL?)...

WARNING! It may just not be acidic because it was neutralized, but it COULD be a cyanide solution. You didn't mention that your friend had tried a cyanide leach, but since it sounds like he threw everything else at it but the kitchen sink, it's a remote possibility.

Please wait for someone with knowledge of cyanide to respond with more information on how to test that bottle. Adding acid to a cyanide solution would release deadly hydrogen cyanide gas.

If it turns out not to be cyanide, you can just combine it with some of the other acidic solutions rather than wasting fresh acid.

Dave

 

[John.k]

Hi Dave,
what would have to be thrown in to be cyanide...

as I´m aware, he was adding HCL, nitric, then some oxalic, smb and NaOH.... and of course combinations of those... Nothing that sounds to have any cyanidic inside...

but I could be wrong.. and wouldnt like to be dead...

 

[FrugalRefiner]

I agree, you only mentioned acids. I'm just erring on the side of caution.

Cyanide leaching solutions are usually made with potassium cyanide or sodium cyanide. Neither is readily available, but they can be found, and they can be used with success to strip gold plated items.

It is unlikely it is cyanide, but you would never get a second chance if you added acid to a cyanide solution.

Many times I post for the benefit of future readers of a thread as well as the original poster. This is one of those times. It is never a good idea to dump acid into an unknown solution you've gotten from someone else.

Dave