Asking questions

[JHS]

then don't bother.let someone else deal with then.
you are under no obligation to continue to respond to them.
john

 

[Claudie]

then don't bother.let someone else deal with then.
you are under no obligation to continue to respond to them.
john

You must not have understood my post. I said helping people is not the problem, answering questions is not the problem, the problem comes when people ask a question only to ignore the answer and ask again, and ignore the answer. It does get annoying to see people do that. No one here has a problem with helping people, this is one of the most helpful groups of people I know of.

 

[Geo]

since i have been here, ive seen all type of engineers on the forum saying something like "i have twenty years of chemistry, im sure i can do this without problems". just because you are a pilot and have flown planes all your life doesnt mean you can build a plane. i really like everyone here and consider everyone to be a friend until proven otherwise. i dont like to argue and refuse to argue with someone im trying to help. i will give anyone the benefit of a doubt, but, there is a limit.i will give my opinion or if i know im sure of the facts i will say this is the way it is.if a person chooses to ignore my advise or tries to tell me why it wont work (depending on the person), thats the end of the discussion.

i consider it a baptism by fire. if a person comes here with preconceived notions and cant get past it to better their education, one of two things will happen, they will be banned for causing a disturbance or they will leave. if they happen to get past these notions and take the advise given, they will be accepted and given as much support as this great conglomerate can muster.

 

[AndyWilliams]

You can not know the motives of a person that comes here and asks the,as it is put,same old stupid question.Perhaps they have a loved one that they are trying to help.Perhaps they are looking for that pot of gold.Maby they are trying to save there home,so their children will not be on the street,
When i came here,it was after a year of research on the net.my mistake was a stupid one.i ordered bisulfate,instead of bisulfite,and i knew better.I never saw hoke mensioned before i found this forum.when it was,i shut up and read,and read some more.I have not asked a question since the first one.
I have been refining silver for 20 years,not a lot,just what i need for my own use.i thought i was ready to refine some e scrap,and if i did not ask the question,my stupid mistake would not have been pointed out.
You never know what a person's motives are,so it is hard to decide if a person is worthy of being treated as a person.
If you do not want to put the effort forth to help another person,then count them as poor and let them die.
I personaly can not do that.

I cannot help but take issue with the sentiment that if I, or someone else, don't help someone, that I have decided that a person is not worthy of being treated as a person. I take further issue that I am counting them poor and letting them die and that there is some sort of moral high ground in helping someone. This site isn't about providing comfort or providing non-lethal advice. On the contrary, advice on this site can be deadly if not implemented safely. While a difference between an -ate and an -ite is troublesome, it's not as potentially lethal as when someone who hasn't the knowledge, or resources, to operate safely, puts fingers into nitric. Are you sure you've given all the advice necessary? Made sure they have goggles to protect against splashes? Warned of fumes that can damage even the neighbors? Acids are added to water, not the other way around? A respirator doesn't protect against fumes? Do they have proper gloves? Can they handle a spill? And I haven't even touched on the need to have read through the MSDS!

Advising someone of a financial resource isn't the same as advising them of a procedure that could end up poisoning the neighbors. And a motive based on desperation is rather the wrong motive to be recovering and refining. There are many times where the refusal to answer the question, and, instead, directing the newbie towards the safety section, is the much more humane decision. One thing is certain, no one will go wrong sending the newbie to the safety section.

 

[JHS]

Claudie,
I agree with you that if someone is going to argue advice from the experts,that you are wasting your time.
I also agree that safety is the first and formost issue that should be addressed.
Most every thing involved can kill .I did say that the safety section is the first and best advice.
Claudie,after reading many of your posts,as well as many other's who take time out of there lives to try to help.Ican only say this
You Can Lead A Horse To Water.
john

 

[patnor1011]

Not the horse which is kicking you or the one who refuse to go on the path you lead him.
All I said is that we need to keep all newly joined members posts in one place. It will be better for all of us.

 

[Pantherlikher]

patnor1011

All new posts are in the new post section. Everything new is there but I'm sure also is in the section posted in. That's where I look first to see who is talking about what. Might be a good place to delete newbie posts that have nothing to contribute. But someone still has to go through them all and deside... Probably does get done to some extent.

I just read a newbie asking about Nitric fumes and the answer was good about safety and reading to learn as well as do a search.
Then you replied to use a watch glass. Helping the person continue without going into the safety and learning first answer that needs to be pushed.

Someone that would ask a question like that will only see your answer to cover and will move ahead and might be ok, might not. But will not have learned anything else untill the next messy question arises.

This example is the time we need to be responsible and step up and only explain why they need to learn the right way without answering thier direct question... This will either get the ...ok where do I begin and how to store untill ready questions... Or, it will get an obnoxious question about demanding the right to a direct answer so they can go onto the next problem that demands and answer.

I think this is where we can help the most. Guide the newbies to begin the journey instead of leading them to the next question.

B.S.
All we can do is lead the horse to the water...

 

[Geo]

there are very few things we do that will kill with one exposure. there are some things that will disfigure and maim on the first exposure. the person who tries to digest metal in the kitchen on the dining table with nitric acid may not kill or even sicken anyone but theres a very good chance they will not repeat the experience. we may have a few that even tried before they came here. the point is, safety should be stressed at every point but giving advice to a stranger for a process that is less likely to blind or disfigure is not a critical mistake and one im sure most of us has made.

Welcome to this forum ! I hope you will pass good time over here.
Please follow those rules:
-Do not use Racism/Sexism/Bad Taste/Violent language.
-Do not spam.
-Do not write like when you are on MSN/ICQ
-Try to correct spelling mistakes.
-Post in the good section
-Do not write in capital letters.
-Be sympathic.

Thanks and I hope this community will grow a lot !

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[JHS]

Perhaps you never heard the saying
You can lead a horse to water
But you can not make him drink.
you can offer the best advice in the world,but if someone is not willing to follow it,
then stop spinning your wheels.
john

 

[Pantherlikher]

JHS
That's what we're discussing/crying about as I put it.

I just remarried and my overly loving wife as 2 "normal" girls 8, 10, and 2 kids from her "X" 12 boy and then there's Nicole 15.
The 2 older kids have no one else to goto, mom and dad are not fit to take care of themselves let alone responsible for kids. Because of the 2 older kids, I can not have a "regular" JOB, Just Over Broke. Darlene has a very good JOB and can support us all but it's not great. The boy's nickname is Stick. He is excelent when it comes to Book learning and has perfect grades, aside from being lazy. But he is as dumb as a stick when it comes to reality and the way things really work. And then there is Nicole...

I, we, daily question ourselves if it is worth beating the dead horse. It's heart breaking and frustrating at the same time. It's down right tortureous.

So when is enough is enough and the horse is really dead?.
This is the best forum I have ever heard of as far as helping freely and sharing everything and just about anything. But the internet/the world, is filled with people who just are dumb as a stick and need to learn reality.

This is why subjects like this come up. It's frustrating and downright bad when you tell the stick that water is for drinking to keep you alive yet, the light bulb is simply burned out. It's frustrating you can't help those who refuse to learn.

B.S.
All we can do is smile and keep trying...

 

[Claudie]

In the words of Jack Benny "well" :|

 

[jeneje]

As porky pig would say....'that's all folks' :lol:
Ken

 

[chlaurite]

It's frustrating and downright bad when you tell the stick that water is for drinking to keep you alive yet, the light bulb is simply burned out. It's frustrating you can't help those who refuse to learn.

In fairness, most people also find it frustrating when they ask a question only to get a completely different answer.

Simple example, I asked a straightforward question Saturday, about the decomp rate of peroxide in HCl. While the discussion that ensued has interested me, and Butcher wrote a great explanation of how a process that I already understand works (and my question makes no sense if I didn't - though admittedly, I would have loved that explanation when I first signed up, and would recommend it as an awesome overview of the AP process)... I have yet to get my actual question answered (though I now know the answer - Once you add it to an even weakly catalyzing metal like copper, overnight will all but obliterate it).

A lot of what we discuss here can hurt you. Sorry, but anyone who doesn't understand that playing with nitric frickin' acid can hurt/kill you really has no place hanging out here in the first place. I've done some pretty stupid things in my life and have a hard-sciences background, and I still consider HNO₃ as something I'll only touch as an absolute last resort. :shock:

 

[CBentre]

Yet another great educational thread. I have yet to see a chemical but I know when the day comes I truly have some great teacher's to learn from. It's kind of funny but even just reading this thread makes the novice person question themselves to follow up on the sub context of the conversations. I am one of the newbs that came here from youtube, it started from learning how to scrap. Then I found Samuels videos and interacted a little with him, from there MMFJ answered a YouTube message and directed me here. Glad I found you folks, hope I'm not one of the nuisances I know I can be at times. And if I have any advice to give to the new generation it would definitely be to know and understand what your getting into before you get yourself into trouble. Your health and safety should always be your first priority. Otherwise you may not get to admire and spend your gold. Ok now you guys can go back to your regular conversation, that is all.

 

[patnor1011]

I am here 5 years. First half of that time I was just reading and gaining knowledge, then I slowly started with small batches of fingers in AP. That first 2 years when I was just reading... Did I lose something? No, I was able to learn and I accumulated several kilograms of pins, IC, CPU, fingers....
When I needed some money I just sold some of my accumulated scrap on ebay and usually for more that I could get from refining it.
You can not rush some things. If you are in a hurry you are losing your battle. Not many people go and buy new car prior to learning how to drive it and you cant use it safely without that knowledge, experience and driving licence.

 

[solar_plasma]

Patnor1011

That first 2 years when I was just reading... Did I lose something? No, I was able to learn and I accumulated several kilograms of pins, IC, CPU, fingers....

The first year, when I started recovery, I didn't even know the forum....Did I lose something? No, I accumulated several litres of solutions and several hands full of solids, I didn't dare to throw away, because I did not know, if there still were values in them. :lol: *self-irony*

 

[midaselm]

As a new-ish user , i have found members very willing to help, and even the dumb questions I've asked so far have been answered very well and with much patience.

I do find locating certain information difficult , and even if have read something before and know it exists on the forum, I have often found it difficult to re-locate . Maybe a FAQ section could help or a way of voting questions / answers to the top of forums might help ?

Either way I usually stumble across something new and relevant each visit .

Thanks all involved,
Ken

 

[Harold_V]

If one is tired of teaching or helping someone seek the knowledge they want. Then why not move on and let someone that is willing to. .

The problem I see with that is that we will lose the hard won knowledge of those who have spent years in developing their expertise. Soon, we will have nothing but relative newbs like myself teaching the next generation of newbs.

Precisely! But with all due respect for those who have less experience and try to help.

I've taken note that many of the older members (not age wise, but time-wise on the board) have tried to pick up the slack, but without years of experience, many of the little nuances of refining, those which must be experienced in order to be understood, are lacking. It is for that reason that the years of hands on refining is so valuable. Don't discount the need for seasoned advisors.

Harold

 

[niteliteone]

After reading this whole discussion I noticed that an age old adage was Not mentioned and vaguely addressed.

ie. ""The only dumb question is the one you fail to ask."" especially dealing with "dangerous" chemicals

I know this can go either way by reading the previous replies regarding "newbies" with their questions, but for us older members it is our responsibility to see these "newbies" and direct them to appropriate threads that Will give them the needed ""Safety"" advice along with what we feel comfortable with as an answer to their questions.

How many of us here actually know Every process their is to recover PM's ???
I feel safe with the answer of "none"...
... but even these well knowledgeable participants of this forum "Ask Questions" from time to time.

 

[Harold_V]

After reading this whole discussion I noticed that an age old adage was Not mentioned and vaguely addressed.

ie. ""The only dumb question is the one you fail to ask."" especially dealing with "dangerous" chemicals

It should be noted that answers to questions often have no meaning if the individual asking has no clue about the mechanics of refining. That's the reason all newbies are instructed to read Hoke's book before getting involved. It most likely won't provide many of the answers to their questions, but it does provide answers that eliminate many questions, and prepares the individual for an understanding of the answers that are forthcoming. I don't see that as being unreasonable.

It's pretty simple, as far as I'm concerned. If a new reader is unwilling to read Hoke's book, I have no interest in trying to help. It's a sure sign they are looking for instant gratification and are unwilling to do the least thing to better their cause. That includes those who may be desperate--such as losing a home, or not having a source of income. It makes no difference what the reason may be---refining requires at least a minimum of understanding, otherwise answers simply lead to more questions, which, in turn, lead to more questions, with the answers not really providing an answer, because it makes no sense to the recipient.

I've said it before, and I'm saying it again. One does not schedule a recital, then hope to learn to play the piano by the performance date. Just like playing music, a lot of hard study and effort is required for one to accomplish the goal of refining. If the individual is not willing to dedicate the time required, it would be unreasonable to expect others to spend an equal amount of time trying to educate them. That's not what this forum is about.

To render it down to a simple thought---it's all about attitude. Some hope to learn, while others hope to live off the sweat and toil of others. Which one asks the questions becomes very obvious in short order.

Harold